Engine questions (I need a new one)

[67topless]

Hey everyone,

Looking for advice and answers to some questions I have on replacing my 289 (has a minor self-induced cracked block):

• I know there are different types of blocks I've read about on different threads (talking about the 302 specifically), be it a Boss block - Sportsman - Dart - etc. So what exactly is a roller block? I've been looking around quite a bit and have seen this listed a lot. And if someone wants to really make my day, what are the different targeted applications of these types of blocks? As an example, I think the Sportsman is a basic upgrade from a standard OEM, correct? A Dart is again the same made by a third party vendor?
• I know there are many things that go into an engine that will determine streetability, including personal preference. Other than going with a dual plane intake over a single and the aggressiveness of your cam choice, is there anything that can make an engine un-streetable? Can one assume if a 331 is making > 400 HP it is going to be a rough setup?
• How about the difference in a flat top versus a domed piston? Does the dome just increase compression? Also, I understand the difference between forged components and cast, but what is a Hyperuetectic piston?
• At what compression do you loose the ability to use pump gas?

My intent is to purchase a streetable long block that is a good upgrade at the same time. I want to stay with a 302 so that the combo will be a direct bolt on replacement to the 289.

• In addition to the above questions, other than the added expense are there any major cons to a stroker over the 302 (such as the 331)?

My current drive line isn't going to handle much more than my current setup (see my signature for the engine combo), it's got a 4sp toploader and an 8 inch 2.79. I'm not concerned with trashing the tranny or the 8 inch given I was going to replace them soon anyway (I would like to keep the 8 inch but throw in a new pumpkin). In a nut shell, I want the quintessential weekend muscle car with street manners.

Hope this wasn't too many questions all at once. Many thanks for your feedback,

Scott

 

[rbohm]

first understand that there is always some one out there that is faster than you. with that in mind you want to select an engine that makes decent power, say 350hp or so, and is still economical to buy and run. yes you can buy the sportsman block, and it will handle more power than the stock 289/302 block, but not enough for the buy in price for what you want. best thing is to contact a company like DSS and tell them what you are looking for and have them build an engine to suit. you need to tell them what level of fuel you want to run, and what kind of drivability you are looking for, and what kind of money you are looking to spend.

 

[D.Hearne]

Hey everyone,

Looking for advice and answers to some questions I have on replacing my 289 (has a minor self-induced cracked block):

• I know there are different types of blocks I've read about on different threads (talking about the 302 specifically), be it a Boss block - Sportsman - Dart - etc. So what exactly is a roller block? I've been looking around quite a bit and have seen this listed a lot. And if someone wants to really make my day, what are the different targeted applications of these types of blocks? As an example, I think the Sportsman is a basic upgrade from a standard OEM, correct? A Dart is again the same made by a third party vendor?
• I know there are many things that go into an engine that will determine streetability, including personal preference. Other than going with a dual plane intake over a single and the aggressiveness of your cam choice, is there anything that can make an engine un-streetable? Can one assume if a 331 is making > 400 HP it is going to be a rough setup?
• How about the difference in a flat top versus a domed piston? Does the dome just increase compression? Also, I understand the difference between forged components and cast, but what is a Hyperuetectic piston?
• At what compression do you loose the ability to use pump gas?

My intent is to purchase a streetable long block that is a good upgrade at the same time. I want to stay with a 302 so that the combo will be a direct bolt on replacement to the 289.

• In addition to the above questions, other than the added expense are there any major cons to a stroker over the 302 (such as the 331)?

My current drive line isn't going to handle much more than my current setup (see my signature for the engine combo), it's got a 4sp toploader and an 8 inch 2.79. I'm not concerned with trashing the tranny or the 8 inch given I was going to replace them soon anyway (I would like to keep the 8 inch but throw in a new pumpkin). In a nut shell, I want the quintessential weekend muscle car with street manners.

Hope this wasn't too many questions all at once. Many thanks for your feedback,

Scott

1. A "roller" block is one that is cast specifically to use the factory roller lifters and tie down hardware (taller lifter bores plus two raised bosses in the middle of the lifter valley for the lifter spyder retainer bolts) Just about all 1986-2001 5.0/302 blocks are roller compatible, (there could be a very small number that are not, so I'm not going to say that 100% are) 2. you can build a 331 with 400 hp that is completely streetable. The one I built is. (Canfield heads, Z303 roller, 3x2 induction, 10.4 to 1 comp ratio) 3. Domed pistons are mainly for applications needing more compression, but a flat top usually will make more power, due to the even flame travel. Hypereutectic cast pistons are made from a different alloy than cast pistons. Hyper's have more silicon added to make them harder (but more brittle) and they "grow" less when heated, allowing a tighter piston to wall clearance. This makes the engine's life span longer. 4. The max comp ratio varies, you also have to take into account the cam grind. Longer overlap and shorter LSA cams bleed off cylinder pressure, these cams therefore are recommended for engines with a higher static compression ratio. My 331 runs on nothing but 93 octane. My 68 Merc's 390 (10.25 to 1 ratio) was fine with 89 octane. My 89 Ranger's 5.0 wants 89 octane in summer, 87 in winter (9 to 1 comp ratio with an Explorer roller cam). .................................................................Finally.............. as for your drivetrain's ability to handle what you want to do, that Toploader 4 speed will handle ANYTHING you put in front of it. If you just want to be rid of it, I'll take it. The 8" will also handle most, but it does have it's limits. The limit will depend on how much torque you apply with how good the tires stick.

 

[67topless]

OK, thanks guys. And D.Hearne, you can have the toploader when I'm done with it... just don't expect it before summer!

So two more questions:

• Any recommendations on a small block reference I can use for educating my-self? One that will explain the in's and out's of the type of questions I've been asking. I mean, I queried for "small block ford" on Amazon.com and got a gazillion results: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-2669126-2975607?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=small+block+ford
• The 331 and 347 strokers tend to be the same price (or very close at least), why would one choose the 331 instead? My first guess would be better longevity... is that correct?

Once again, thanks for the commentary,

Scott

 

[SoCalCruising]

The 331 has a slightly more desirable rod ratio and places somewhat less stress on the bores by reducing side loading of the piston against the bore. It also will take more RPM without issues (one reason why Ford's new Boss 331 crate motor is not a Boss 347). Finally, there are at least three pistons available for a 331 that do not require an oil ring support. In other words, the piston pin does not encroach into the lower land of the oil ring. Support rings (esp. if carelessly mounted) can be source of reduced oil control. So, although a 347 CAN be a good street motor, a 331 has some advantages. Power-wise, they are roughly equivalant.

The Dart, Ford Racing Boss and R302, and World blocks are all much beefier than the production blocks, including hte sportsman block. If you contemplate more than 425hp and 6500RPM, then a Sportsman block will buy you a little more - maybe to 450-475hp. When you increase stroke, power, and RPM (maybe especially RPM) you have to start paying attention to the block you choose. As a rough rule of thumb, use a Boss block, or better, if you plan on making 500hp and spin the motor over 6500RPM. Even under that level, however, abusing a production or Sportsman block will break it. This is from a planning point of view and based on REALLY not wanting issues down the road. Of course, there are people violating that rule of thumb without problems - but they are living on borrowed time, IMHO.

D. Hearne did a great job of answering your other questions.

I like:
Dyno-Proven Small-Block Ford Performance, and
Building Ford Short Track Power: Official Factory Guide

The first will help with combos and the second is very good as a guide to building the engine yourself.

 

[D.Hearne]

OK, thanks guys. And D.Hearne, you can have the toploader when I'm done with it... just don't expect it before summer!


Scott

The best book on the ins and outs of the 79-2001 302's is "The Official Ford Mustang 5.0" This book is by Al Kirschenbaum and was put out thru Ford Racing. And I'm going to hold you to that Toploader........................ Anxiously awaiting it..................... The reason I did a 331 was it's greater expectation of longetivity. What kills one(the block) is the application of too many rpms and too much rotating mass, it's not really the total horsepower output. The stock blocks just were never designed for the rpms or the extra rotating weight.

 

[67topless]

Getting closer

...3. Domed pistons are mainly for applications needing more compression, but a flat top usually will make more power, due to the even flame travel. Hypereutectic cast pistons are made from a different alloy than cast pistons. Hyper's have more silicon added to make them harder (but more brittle) and they "grow" less when heated, allowing a tighter piston to wall clearance. This makes the engine's life span longer. 4...

Right now I am still on the fence about the 331 or the 347; but leaning towards the 347. Looking at DSS, they obviously have some great long block options. Assuming I went with either the 331 or the 347 with the AFR 185's, which piston option makes the most sense from below?

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For Use With Standard Inline Cylinder Heads: AFR, Edelbrock, GT 40, Dart, Canfield, <?***:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1lace><st1laceName>TFS</st1laceName> <st1laceName>High</st1laceName> <st1laceType>Port</st1laceType></st1lace>, FMS J302, Brodix Track 1<?***:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>​

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331SB2000<o></o>​

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</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 34%; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 10.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width="34%">

<o> </o>​

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331SB2001<o></o>​

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</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 34%; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 10.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width="34%">

<o> </o>​

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331SB2004<o></o>​

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</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 34%; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 10.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width="34%">

<o> </o>​

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347SB2000<o></o>​

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<o> </o>​

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347SB2004<o></o>​

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<o> </o>​

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http://www.dssracing.com/newprobullet.htm
​

I am at the stage where I am getting close to calling DSS to work out the details; just want to be as informed before hand as possible. Any recomendations on a specific person to speak with at DSS would be greatly appreciated.

Also, DSS is offering a free upgrade to Extreme X Forged pistons with their Pro Bullet series short and long blocks. Is this a big deal? They call them ultra-lightweight... (edit: never mind on this, found the details on their website. Extreme X Forged pistons)

And lastly (for this post at least), at some point in the future (will most likely be years), I will want to strap on a power adder of some flavor... be it turbo or super charger. Given this, is it worth stepping up to the plate for the level 10 CNC block at the Pro Bullet series? Or is the entry level Bullet series adequate with the level 2 CNC? From what I've read on-line, this is automated - finer level of block detailing... correct?

 

[D.Hearne]

In a 347 with a power adder, you really wanty to avoid using a stock block. Spin it too far (above 5500) and it'll have an extremely short life span. You'll end up with two inline 4 cylinder motors As for piston choice, you'll also want the lowest compression ratio for a supercharger, that chart doesn'y give a specific comp ratio, but either the -13 or -18 cc pistons are what you'll be choosing between.

 

[67topless]

Next round of questions

Just got off the phone with Mike at DSS; I told him my story (that I want a street mannered sledge hammer - I'm sure he laughed on the inside). I want a low compression setup that will allow for a blower down the road (this will be a minimum of two years or more from now). He recommended staying in the 9.0 to 9.5:1 compression range as a good foundation for those plans. I have decided to target the 331 build (331SB2001) as well. So questions:

• First, I want to go with the AFR 185's... but there are choices to be made just within these heads. First they offer them in emissions legal and non-legal configurations. I have no emissions test requirements, so are there any reasons not to choose the latter? Then on top of that, the 185's come with the choice of a 58cc and 72cc combustion chamber; given I can choose the pistons and the heads at the same time, does the choice matter? In other words, with either the 58cc or 72cc, I can choose the compression based on dished piston or flat top piston combinations (at least sort of). If I am shooting for approximately a 9.0:1 compression, I could choose the 72cc heads with the flat top pistons (3cc reliefs) and I will get somewhere around 9.04:1. If I choose the 58cc heads with the 13cc dished pistons, I get around 9.4:1 compression. I guess I answered my own question as I assume that is a big difference. But then again, if I choose the 58cc heads with the 18cc max quench pistons, that gives me about 8.95:1 compression. Thoughts? Am I making this too complicated for my own good?
• Second, given what I've described so far, does the RPM Air-Gap make pretty good sense for the intake choice?
• And third, given the searches I've done on the forum, this is an often asked question: what roller cam should I choose? My current setup was using a XE262H Comp Cam (218I and 224E @ .05 with a 110 LSA). This is pretty mild all though I was happy with it. Performer 289 intake, heavily ported and massaged original heads, long tubes and a 600 CFM Holley. A great mild build that I had a lot of fun with.
• Key point, one reason I will be delaying the power adder; I will have many issues keeping the tires planted as is... so I will be focusing on the rear once this is done (actually from the tranny on back). So with that in mind, any other observations - thougts or comments? What else am I missing?

Thanks everyone,

Scott

 

[SoCalCruising]

Airgap or Stealth. Both are fine.
Comp XE274HR is a good cam for both power and driveability. Or call FTI or Jay Allen for a custom. If you want to go less expensive, try the Ford "X" cam and advance it 4 degrees when you install it.
Theoretically, smaller chambers and larger dish makes for better combustion. That's how the modern stuff is now done. If you go Max Quench, then make sure your piston-to-deck clearance is no more than .005". If you buy from DSS, you can specify that, I believe.

 

[67topless]

...
Comp XE274HR is a good cam for both power and driveability. Or call FTI or Jay Allen for a custom. If you want to go less expensive, try the Ford "X" cam and advance it 4 degrees when you install it.
Theoretically, smaller chambers and larger dish makes for better combustion. That's how the modern stuff is now done. If you go Max Quench, then make sure your piston-to-deck clearance is no more than .005". If you buy from DSS, you can specify that, I believe.

Cool, that is the cam I've seen listed in a lot of builds. So, it would be better to go with the 58cc heads and the max quench, assuming clearence is within spec as you stated?

 

[raleighstang65]

Sucks that you have a cracked block but what a great excuse to upgrade! Good luck with the swap. I'd hate to see those nicely worked heads junking up your garage... wanna get rid of em'? I can even pick them up!
-Adam

 

[67topless]

Sucks that you have a cracked block but what a great excuse to upgrade! Good luck with the swap. I'd hate to see those nicely worked heads junking up your garage... wanna get rid of em'? I can even pick them up!
-Adam

LOL

This process is going to take me a bit; my plan is to order the long block in next week to 10 days once my tax return is filed. But it may be the end of summer before my ole 289 gets yanked. She still runs to the grocery store (very strongly)... just drips a whole heck of a lot of oil! You should see my headers and tranny... they are a mess.


Anyway, I'll be pretty much be piecing the whole engine as the majority of the parts have less than 3k miles on them. The heads had a wicked port job done on them... I'll give you the local Raleigh discount on them.


Of course I am going to re-use what-ever I can to save $$$.

 

[D.Hearne]

Just me, but I'd go with the 58 cc chambered heads, they'll have a better resistance to detonation with a smaller chamber. I've heard the Ford Racing F303 is a good blower cam. AFR165 heads would also work well on a 331. My 331's Canfields are the equivalent of the 165's and it's got awesome power from 1500 to 6500 with the dual plane 3x2 intake and Ford Z303 cam (1.7 rockers)

 

[67topless]

This is what I have so far

The combo I have linked will run ~ 9.4:1 compression. This spreadsheet lists my targeted build; please let me know what you think I am missing (I tried pasting this into the thread, but it said it was too many characters).

Engine_Build.xls

Scott

 

[SoCalCruising]

Well, we generally miss SOMETHING, but your getting there. Your CR looks right according to my calculation.

 

[57fairlane]

The 331 has a slightly more desirable rod ratio and places somewhat less stress on the bores by reducing side loading of the piston against the bore.

While mathematically true, I would never buy a 331 kit over a 347 for any application not even considering they are roughly the same price.

The rod ratio is a moot point. Back in the late 90s, piston design did indeed suck but any competent engine builder could assemble a 347 without the "oil drinking" issues.

Over the course of 100,000 the wear might be slightly more but to put things in perspective look at other motors.

Check on these: Ls1, Ls7, 6.1 hemi, and for s&g = chevy 400.

Arguing over .1 of a rod is ridiculous.

It also will take more RPM without issues (one reason why Ford's new Boss 331 crate motor is not a Boss 347).

That depends on how high you take a motor. 7000+ is entirely possible and has been done quite a bit actually over on hardcore5.0

Power-wise, they are roughly equivalant.

Thats like comparing a 1/16 vs a 1/8 in terms of "roughly"

A very good street (under 6500) 331 will be doing good to make 370-390rwhp

The same type of setup on a 347 will get you out past 400 and into the 420s with a custom cam.

I have NEVER seen a 331 make within 15rwhp of a 347 with exactly the same parts not to mention the rest of the curve.