Engine? What is known?

Vlad · Feb 3, 2004

So I have parsed these threads and while there is a lot of cosmetic stuff there is not a lot of mention about this three-valve wonder. What gives? I picked up MT RT and hotrod so I have some ideas as to what’s going on under the hood but my last v8 was a pushrod; this sohc abomination has me a little stumped. So I am attempting to learn everything I can about this engine.
What more, if anything, can yall tell me about this engine?
Let me try some specific questions:
How is the VVT system going to work? hotrod mentioned a flapper valve on one of the intake ports.
Torque! How is it that these 4.6s make torque in the low end?
Where is the aftermarket? I cant find anything for the current 4.6. What does that mean for the 3 valve? Are these engines just so good they don’t need mods?
A forward breathing 5.7lt chevy intake??? What is up with that?! Kidding of course. I like the design but that 90* turn the intake charge is going to have to make is going to kill velocity. What do you think about an RAISS style intake for the stang?
On that point, I was recently watching something about the making of the new f-150 and there was some mention about how much effort went into the sound of the engine. To get the perfect sound there is a giant baffle on the intake that tunes the sound of the engine. I haven’t seen anything like this on any of the pictures of the 3v but there was some mention in another post of the incredible sound of this car. Is it tuned? If so that’s gettin yanked before it leaves the lot.
How different will this power plant be from the current 4.6? I have been ghosting as many 4.6 boards as I can trying to learn these engines.
Anybody else want to pull this engine and take it apart? I am a complete novice when it comes to mechanix. Everything I know I could sum up in a paragraph or 2 but it is all self taught and I loved every minute of it and I will love (I hope anyway) every minute of learning this new engine.

hoowah!

63_Fairlane · Feb 3, 2004

I am by no means an expert on the 4.6 but I can point out a few bits of info.

Bore and stroke.
The 5.0 or 302 had a 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke.
The 4.6 has a 3.54 bore and 3.55 stroke. That is a slightly longer stroke than a 351 Windsor for example.

Two valve single cam 4.6 engines produced 260 HP from 1999 through 2004. I would definately stay away from the earlier two valve 4.6s unless you plan on rebuilding, modifying, or using a blower.

Speaking of blowers, this is the best way to produce power with these engines in either single cam or dual cam versions. The heads on the 4 valve engines seem to work great with blowers.

As for aftermarket parts, the situation is much like the 1960s. Ford didn't produce a lot of go fast parts for the 289/302 in the 1960s because they had bigger engines to shoehorn into the Mustang like 351s, 390s, 428s, and 429s. The difference today is that instead of increased displacement, Ford uses increased technology to build a more powerful engine. What this means is there probably aren't going to be a lot of aftermarket replacements for the 2 valve head because the 4 valve and new 3 valve heads will fill that roll. IMO.

Although there won't be a lot of aftermarket heads, that doesn't shut the door on the 2 valve engines. They come from the factory with aluminum heads. A good port job and a cam can really liven them up, and there are quite a few bolt on goodies that really work.

Hope this helps.

351CJ · Feb 3, 2004

VVT means that the valve opening or closing events in relation to the crankshaft (position) can vary. In a regular engine you have to pick a compromise between crank and valve timing, do you want peak power optimized or low end torque. With VVT you don't have to pick such a compromise as the engine controls can varying the valve timing depending on engine RPM and load.

The multi stage intake port (flaper) is not directly related to the VVT. What it does on the Ford 3V is to close off half of the air passage at low RPMs to restrict the size of the manifold air passage to increase low RPM air velocity, thus improving airflow to the cylinder and increasing low RPM torque.

I had a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and now have a 2003 LS V8. The 2003 has VVT, the 2000 didn't. With the VVT the 2003 has a lot more low RPM grunt. While peak torque was increased by 19 lb. ft. torque at 2500 RPM was increased by over 30 lb. ft. and that's where you really feel the difference.

VVT can also be used to improve gas mileage under light engine loads.

There are lots of aftermarket parts for the 4.6L 2 valve engines, heads, cams, forged internals, timing adjusters, throttle bodies, chips, headers, air intakes, manifolds, supercharger kits etc. However, it will probably take a while before such parts for the 3V show up. Even when they do, improvements in performance will be harder to come by simply because the 3V puts out so much more HP from the factory. - 65 hp / L vs. 56 hp / L for the 2V.

Vlad · Feb 4, 2004

63_Fairlane said:
I am by no means an expert on the 4.6 but I can point out a few bits of info.

Bore and stroke.
The 5.0 or 302 had a 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke.
The 4.6 has a 3.54 bore and 3.55 stroke. That is a slightly longer stroke than a 351 Windsor for example.

Two valve single cam 4.6 engines produced 260 HP from 1999 through 2004. I would definately stay away from the earlier two valve 4.6s unless you plan on rebuilding, modifying, or using a blower.

Speaking of blowers, this is the best way to produce power with these engines in either single cam or dual cam versions. The heads on the 4 valve engines seem to work great with blowers.

As for aftermarket parts, the situation is much like the 1960s. Ford didn't produce a lot of go fast parts for the 289/302 in the 1960s because they had bigger engines to shoehorn into the Mustang like 351s, 390s, 428s, and 429s. The difference today is that instead of increased displacement, Ford uses increased technology to build a more powerful engine. What this means is there probably aren't going to be a lot of aftermarket replacements for the 2 valve head because the 4 valve and new 3 valve heads will fill that roll. IMO.

Although there won't be a lot of aftermarket heads, that doesn't shut the door on the 2 valve engines. They come from the factory with aluminum heads. A good port job and a cam can really liven them up, and there are quite a few bolt on goodies that really work.

Hope this helps.

nice! helps alot thanks

Vlad · Feb 4, 2004

351CJ said:
VVT means that the valve opening or closing events in relation to the crankshaft (position) can vary. In a regular engine you have to pick a compromise between crank and valve timing, do you want peak power optimized or low end torque. With VVT you don't have to pick such a compromise as the engine controls can varying the valve timing depending on engine RPM and load.

The multi stage intake port (flaper) is not directly related to the VVT. What it does on the Ford 3V is to close off half of the air passage at low RPMs to restrict the size of the manifold air passage to increase low RPM air velocity, thus improving airflow to the cylinder and increasing low RPM torque.

I had a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and now have a 2003 LS V8. The 2003 has VVT, the 2000 didn't. With the VVT the 2003 has a lot more low RPM grunt. While peak torque was increased by 19 lb. ft. torque at 2500 RPM was increased by over 30 lb. ft. and that's where you really feel the difference.

VVT can also be used to improve gas mileage under light engine loads.

There are lots of aftermarket parts for the 4.6L 2 valve engines, heads, cams, forged internals, timing adjusters, throttle bodies, chips, headers, air intakes, manifolds, supercharger kits etc. However, it will probably take a while before such parts for the 3V show up. Even when they do, improvements in performance will be harder to come by simply because the 3V puts out so much more HP from the factory. - 65 hp / L vs. 56 hp / L for the 2V.

vvt sounds like a great idea. I was talking to a toyota mech here and he said that they have been using this tech for some years and that it is pretty bullet proof which is good. Insurance is going to make me wait until 06 before I can afford the v8. that is a dam long time away.

Mr Black · Feb 4, 2004

VVT is similar to BMW's VANOS- a device on the end of the cam rotates so the cam-to-crank timing is either advanced or retarded. I think the total range is 50 degrees on the Mustang 3v which is pretty damn good.

I wonder if Ford has made the VVT system easily removable in case aftermarket cam companies don't want to design grinds to work with it, or perhaps they will want to design their profiles around the VVT. It will be very interesting to see.

As for the intake, here's an excerpt from the writeup:

The air-fuel mixture entering an engine behaves differently at different engine speeds and loads. At low engine speeds and light loads, these specially shaped CMCV flaps are closed to speed up the intake charge and induce a tumble effect in the combustion chamber. This causes the fuel to mix more thoroughly, and burn more quickly and efficiently. At higher engine speeds, they open fully for maximum flow into the combustion chambers at wide-open throttle

Note that a manifold is no longer a manifold but is now a " composite integrated air-fuel module" Thanks Ford.

oogtdude · Feb 4, 2004

351CJ said:
VVT means that the valve opening or closing events in relation to the crankshaft (position) can vary. In a regular engine you have to pick a compromise between crank and valve timing, do you want peak power optimized or low end torque. With VVT you don't have to pick such a compromise as the engine controls can varying the valve timing depending on engine RPM and load.

The multi stage intake port (flaper) is not directly related to the VVT. What it does on the Ford 3V is to close off half of the air passage at low RPMs to restrict the size of the manifold air passage to increase low RPM air velocity, thus improving airflow to the cylinder and increasing low RPM torque.

I had a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 and now have a 2003 LS V8. The 2003 has VVT, the 2000 didn't. With the VVT the 2003 has a lot more low RPM grunt. While peak torque was increased by 19 lb. ft. torque at 2500 RPM was increased by over 30 lb. ft. and that's where you really feel the difference.

VVT can also be used to improve gas mileage under light engine loads.

There are lots of aftermarket parts for the 4.6L 2 valve engines, heads, cams, forged internals, timing adjusters, throttle bodies, chips, headers, air intakes, manifolds, supercharger kits etc. However, it will probably take a while before such parts for the 3V show up. Even when they do, improvements in performance will be harder to come by simply because the 3V puts out so much more HP from the factory. - 65 hp / L vs. 56 hp / L for the 2V.

nice, do you think they will run out of steam at top end like 99-04 ..it has the 6k redline?

Stinger · Feb 4, 2004

oogtdude said:
nice, do you think they will run out of steam at top end like 99-04 ..it has the 6k redline?

Why would they? That's the point of the VVT...to gain low and and top end at the same time (as shown above, it had more low and high rpm torque).

Stinger

351CJ · Feb 5, 2004

oogtdude said:
nice, do you think they will run out of steam at top end like 99-04 ..it has the 6k redline?

The current 4.6L 2V runs out of steam because it only has one intake valve and relatively small intake ports. The new 3V engine has 2 intake valves and huge intake ports. The heads flow almost as much air as the DOHC 4V engine. So the new GT engine should have a lot better top end, but its due to the 2 intake valves not the VVT.

lowside21 · Feb 6, 2004

I cant wait for this car I love everything about it , It is the coolest mustang ever. Stunning looks classic and new. A fresh muscle car look. Engine that opens new doors on preformance. That three valve is going to gooble up a supercharger. I read a rumor in race pages that they flow 350! on the intake. This engine will probably turn a 10lb kit into a 6lb. And as far as people going into the engine , I am saving for my money for bolt ons as we speak and I plan on getting late 05 or an 06. After a good 500 mile break in I will have the N2O installed , cat back, pulleys , Cool air intake, and some computer work. Maybe some 3.73's. Ohh and some Bogarts with drag radials. Will see how things go but I am not afraid to yank the mill ,beef it up and put a Kenne bell on it. Cash flow is my equalizer, so we will see. Ohh I am a machanic so I have the tools and equiptment to do this. But keep in mind all engines are held together with bolts, they all unscrew. So dont be intimidated because they are put together in a different way. I would say most enthusiest have the ability to do an engine swap, with a few basic tools. Internal engine work is were you need some exsperience. Just my 2 cents. Cant wait, I am on pins and needles already, I will get to own a real mustang thats not twice my age!

Vlad · Feb 8, 2004

So I just read that the 03 cobra engine is good to 1000 hp (!) anybody know if this is the block thats going into the 05 gt?

Stinger · Feb 8, 2004

No, the cobra doesn't have an aluminum block like the 05GT.

conor · Feb 9, 2004

Vlad said:
vvt sounds like a great idea. I was talking to a toyota mech here and he said that they have been using this tech for some years and that it is pretty bullet proof which is good. Insurance is going to make me wait until 06 before I can afford the v8. that is a dam long time away.

Yup, such a good idea that Honda's been using it since 1989 (VTEC). And they're not even the first ones to come up with it. Toyota's 1.6L 20V 4-cyl is a popular swap for the 80s MR2 guys for this reason. The 3.0L I6 in the Lexus (Toyota) IS300 (Altezza) is a decent beast. It's basically the twin turbo engine from the Supra without the turbos.

So uh... where was I going... Oh yeah, variable valve timing is a fan-fsking-tastic idea. And I want a Toyota to drive when I'm not tearing around in my Mustang II kit roader

XtorT'r · Feb 9, 2004

Mr Black said:
VVT is similar to BMW's VANOS- a device on the end of the cam rotates so the cam-to-crank timing is either advanced or retarded. I think the total range is 50 degrees on the Mustang 3v which is pretty damn good.

I wonder if Ford has made the VVT system easily removable in case aftermarket cam companies don't want to design grinds to work with it, or perhaps they will want to design their profiles around the VVT. It will be very interesting to see.

As for the intake, here's an excerpt from the writeup:

The air-fuel mixture entering an engine behaves differently at different engine speeds and loads. At low engine speeds and light loads, these specially shaped CMCV flaps are closed to speed up the intake charge and induce a tumble effect in the combustion chamber. This causes the fuel to mix more thoroughly, and burn more quickly and efficiently. At higher engine speeds, they open fully for maximum flow into the combustion chambers at wide-open throttle

Note that a manifold is no longer a manifold but is now a " composite integrated air-fuel module" Thanks Ford.

WTF... I might have been lost in that last part but... That doesn't mean they are mixing the A\F in the manifold , does it? That sounds a little backwards.

351CJ · Feb 10, 2004

XtorT'r said:
WTF... I might have been lost in that last part but... That doesn't mean they are mixing the A\F in the manifold , does it? That sounds a little backwards.

The fuel is injected into the intake ports near the junction of the intake manifold and head, same as it is done today on the 2V engine.

The valve in the manifold changes the air flow not the fuel.

Engine? What is known?

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