From Left Field: Hydrogen injection - mileage, emissions

70vert · Nov 23, 2005

Hey all,

Check this thing out:

http://www.sustainabilityzone.com/comments.php?load_this=162

If this were ever affordable, and reliable, I would buy one. It produces hydrogen on-the-fly, so no worries about having an explosive hydrogen tank in your engine, and it's about the size of a DVD player, so might fit under the hood.
I for one would welcome a little more gas mileage, and even BETTER to roll up next to the guy in the Toyota Prius (Pious?) and yell out the window "get that pollution machine off the road!" (the hydrogen injection can eliminate up to 100% of emissions from a cleaner burn)
Anyway, something interesting to think about over the holidays - assuming this isn't too good to be true, more mileage and far fewer emissions (at an affordable price) would be welcome . . .

wild70stang · Nov 23, 2005

I wonder how much it would cost. Lol I guess 1,000,000.

70vert · Nov 23, 2005

(cue Dr. Evil)

a MILLION dollars.

If you want to find out more info, Google "hydrogen generator joe williams" and you'll find a few articles. This link puts the price at about $7,500 at the most, and certainly prices will fall and/or people will copy the design:

http://www.futuresalon.org/2005/09/h2ngen_hydrogen.html

A large version of this is used in some fleet vehicles in Canada, I believe. You just need to fill the thing up with distilled water.

Using some (very rough) calculations, assuming 12mpg (that's what I got 15 years ago in this car at least), a gas price of $2.50 (conservative), and a 25% increase in fuel efficiency (they claim 10-40%, so right up the middle) it would pay for itself in

(wait for it)

90,000 miles!

This guy is either going to get sued, get stinking rich, get assassinated by oil companies, or be exposed as a snake-oil salesman.
We'll see what happens after some years of testing and price drops on thsi thing . . . but this might make me use a classic 'stang as a daily driver for the little I do drive. Sell my Scion and use the money for Hydro Power!

wild70stang said:
I wonder how much it would cost. Lol I guess 1,000,000.

ForceFed70 · Nov 23, 2005

There are 2 major obsticals keeping hydrogen powered cars off of the road.

1) Fuel storage. To liquify hydrogen you must store it at an extremely cold temperature or at an extremely high pressure. Hydrogen tanks you see in vehicles have the gas compressed, but not to the point of liquification. Basically this means that you'd have to have a VERY large tank to get decent mileage.

2) Hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen has a tendancy to make metals very brittle...resulting in premature engine failure (One company I looked at had an engine lifespan of only 20,000 miles). I'm not an expert so I can't tell you why, but a google search on "hydrogen embrittlement" will get you started.

Also... it wouldn't be 100% polution free, but it would be pretty close. You still need to lubricate the cylinder walls. Because of this a small amoung of engine oil makes it's way into the combustion process.

degins · Nov 24, 2005

70vert said:
Hey all,

Check this thing out:

http://www.sustainabilityzone.com/comments.php?load_this=162

If this were ever affordable, and reliable, I would buy one. It produces hydrogen on-the-fly, so no worries about having an explosive hydrogen tank in your engine, and it's about the size of a DVD player, so might fit under the hood.
I for one would welcome a little more gas mileage, and even BETTER to roll up next to the guy in the Toyota Prius (Pious?) and yell out the window "get that pollution machine off the road!" (the hydrogen injection can eliminate up to 100% of emissions from a cleaner burn)
Anyway, something interesting to think about over the holidays - assuming this isn't too good to be true, more mileage and far fewer emissions (at an affordable price) would be welcome . . .

I can't state this more strongly. SNAKE OIL! New world BS. The article claims that the process uses the hydrogen produced from electrolysis of 1 liter of water in 80 hours of operation. Well, 1 liter of water will yield 1/8 lb of hydrogen. Hydrogen has a fuel value of 52000 btu per lbs or about 6500 btu in the 1/8 lbs. Gasoline has a fuel value of about 125000 btu per gallon. So, the article is claiming that the 1/8 lb of hydrogen, which is equivalent to about 1/20 gallon of gasoline, used over 80 hours will increase fuel milage by 25%. Like I said, new world BS.

rbohm · Nov 24, 2005

hydrogenating something that already has hydrogen in it, thats a new one. remember that gasoline is a hydrocarbon. i doubt what this guy claims is valid.

70vert · Nov 24, 2005

no hydrogen is stored in the vehicle, generated on-the-fly

1) there's no storage for the hydrogen, it's just generated on-the-fly. I wouldn't store hydrogen in my 'stang, either . . .

2) It's already a proven concept, just on a larger scale. What this guy has (apparently) done is to make it small enough to be feasible to install in a passenger car.

http://sustainabilityzone.com/comments.php?load_this=72

http://www.chechfi.ca/sohfitech.htm

3) Hydrogen embrittlement - OK, it looks like a problem, but that seems to be with engines converted to run on hydrogen. This is just a tiny bit to increase fuel burning efficiency, so I wonder how substantial the effect is.

I would believe the "snake oil" thing if there weren't other, competing designs doing the same thing and if this guy's former company weren't getting sued by Hy-Drive, making a similar component. I hate to be the boy that cried wolf, but I think this one might be a wolf . . .

70_Nitrous_Eater said:
There are 2 major obsticals keeping hydrogen powered cars off of the road.

1) Fuel storage. To liquify hydrogen you must store it at an extremely cold temperature or at an extremely high pressure. Hydrogen tanks you see in vehicles have the gas compressed, but not to the point of liquification. Basically this means that you'd have to have a VERY large tank to get decent mileage.

2) Hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen has a tendancy to make metals very brittle...resulting in premature engine failure (One company I looked at had an engine lifespan of only 20,000 miles). I'm not an expert so I can't tell you why, but a google search on "hydrogen embrittlement" will get you started.

Also... it wouldn't be 100% polution free, but it would be pretty close. You still need to lubricate the cylinder walls. Because of this a small amoung of engine oil makes it's way into the combustion process.

degins · Nov 24, 2005

70vert said:
1) there's no storage for the hydrogen, it's just generated on-the-fly. I wouldn't store hydrogen in my 'stang, either . . .

2) It's already a proven concept, just on a larger scale. What this guy has (apparently) done is to make it small enough to be feasible to install in a passenger car.

http://sustainabilityzone.com/comments.php?load_this=72

http://www.chechfi.ca/sohfitech.htm

3) Hydrogen embrittlement - OK, it looks like a problem, but that seems to be with engines converted to run on hydrogen. This is just a tiny bit to increase fuel burning efficiency, so I wonder how substantial the effect is.

I would believe the "snake oil" thing if there weren't other, competing designs doing the same thing and if this guy's former company weren't getting sued by Hy-Drive, making a similar component. I hate to be the boy that cried wolf, but I think this one might be a wolf . . .

Cold fusion was for real too, until it was disproved! Just because someone on some crackpot new world blog say it's so, don't make it so. I happen to understand the chemistry and engineering and it ain't so. Wishful thinking!

An internal combustion engine runs on heat. It converts the heat to work. The source of the heat is fuel. In the case of most engines that fuel is gasoline. There are other fuels like alcohols, diesel, Biodiesel, hydrogen. Some fuels generate more heat per unit of mass, but fuel is fuel. Adding 1/10 lb of hydrogen to 240 gallons of gasoline (80 hours worth) is not going to cause some little understood reaction that dramatically affects its fuel value. The hydrogen will not combine with the hydrocarbon. The hydrogen would simply dissolve in the gasoline and add a tiny amount to the total heat output as it is oxidized during combustion.

70vert · Nov 25, 2005

They're shipping two products, showing at SEMA

Degins,
Cold fusion was never a shipping product. This is two shipping products from CHEC, first the diesel semi thing, and also this for passenger cars that they just announced.:

http://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/HFILTSeriespressrelease.pdf

Now, perhaps the "Joe Williams" unit is snake oil, but this company is apparently selling this product with reviews, satisfied customers, and new products being shown at SEMA.

Hydrogen is not mixed with fuel until the intake manifold, and apparently at the top of the stroke. I'm no engine expert, but unless they have concocted a website, numerous reviews, and SEMA appearances, and convinced a number of commentators to say "Yes, people buy this and use it", I'm hard pressed to believe that it can't work.

Now Joe Williams' mini unit might be another matter . . .

I googled "CHEC HFI hydrogen injection" and got this result:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=chec+hfi+hydrogen+injection&btnG=Search

degins said:
Cold fusion was for real too, until it was disproved! Just because someone on some crackpot new world blog say it's so, don't make it so. I happen to understand the chemistry and engineering and it ain't so. Wishful thinking!

An internal combustion engine runs on heat. It converts the heat to work. The source of the heat is fuel. In the case of most engines that fuel is gasoline. There are other fuels like alcohols, diesel, Biodiesel, hydrogen. Some fuels generate more heat per unit of mass, but fuel is fuel. Adding 1/10 lb of hydrogen to 240 gallons of gasoline (80 hours worth) is not going to cause some little understood reaction that dramatically affects its fuel value. The hydrogen will not combine with the hydrocarbon. The hydrogen would simply dissolve in the gasoline and add a tiny amount to the total heat output as it is oxidized during combustion.

degins · Nov 25, 2005

70vert,
In this case, the quantity of hydrogen injected is so tiny (70 parts per million) that it doesn't matter where it's introduced. For sure, if significant quantity of hydrogen were injected into the intake along with the fuel the emission profile of an engine would improve. This is not a new idea.

I was at SEMA this year. I can attest that the show producers will allow anyone to show anything that is car part related and accompanies the booth fee. There was a lot of junk on display.

How many millions of those worthless mysterious "fuel saving" fuel line magnet/molecular aligners or air intake air organizers have been sold. The availability of a product does not validate its efficacy.

70vert · Jan 19, 2006

more evidence - this is actually being used, works

I submit this, more evidence that a product based on this concept is actually used by truckers in Canada and the US:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,69529,00.html

and this ABC News spot from H2N-Gen's website about their smaller unit. Apparently GM is interested.:

http://www.ihsresearch.com/radio.php

I'm willing to stick my neck out on this and check up on it every few months - there's lots of evidence that this stuff is for real and if it can give us better mileage, less carbon deposits, and greatly reduced emissions it could improve our Mustang experience quite a bit. There are probably guys with a lot more $ kicking around than I have that are interested in this too. as a patriot and environmentalist (who likes more horsepower too) I'm all for it.

kmterrill · Jan 19, 2006

Very interesting concept. I took a look at www.hydrogen-boost.com and they claim that the benefits are from an increased flame propagation rate inside the cylinder which in turn would lead to more fuel being combusted in the cylinder.

Taranis · Jan 19, 2006

"An internal combustion engine runs on heat. It converts the heat to work"

Pardon me, but I thought that in an internal combustion engine worked by rapidly expanding gasses driving a piston. Not the actual heat of combustion driving the piston down. Don't get me wrong, the heat generated by igniting a fuel is is a major part of combustion, but is not the driving force.

ddonaca351 · Jan 20, 2006

70vert said:
Hey all,

Check this thing out:

If this were ever affordable, and reliable, I would buy one. .

Well hydrogen has been in use for years in mass transit (busses) in europe and canada. The problem is that our country has most of the politicians from california, texas, new mex, oklahoma, lousiana, etc... all elected by being backed by oil money. To put their profits in jeopardy is political suicide, so you will not see it in widespread use any time soon (in this country at least...)

It is just like steam powered systems, or hydraulic asist units, etc... none of them will make it to production.

It's a real shame that the planet will be destroyed in the quest for $$$$$, when it doesnt need to be.

DD
(employed a big oil co that "Shall" remain nameless....)

FallujahMedic · Jan 20, 2006

Even further into left field

Not hydrogen related, but maybe rocket science

What effect would LOX (liquid oxygen) have on an internal combustion engine if injected like nitrous? Keep in mind that it will have expanded to a gas by the time it reached the engine and its charge temp would be very cold/dense? I've always wondered.

kmterrill · Jan 20, 2006

Running pure oxygen into the motor would need more fuel added, to keep the stoiciometric ratios correct. The problem you'll run into is being able to combust all the fuel in the cylinder, because you are not increasing your flame propagation rate and there is more fuel. As you replace Air with pure Oxygen though, you would definately see the NOx's in the exhaust disappear.

kmterrill · Jan 20, 2006

^Basically be just the same a Nitrous except now you've got a really dangerous bottle of oxygen in your car.

The hydrogen is not being used for making power in this process. It is being used as more of an accelerant to the combustion process.

70vert · Jan 20, 2006

that's too cheap to believe that it works

kmterrill said:
Very interesting concept. I took a look at www.hydrogen-boost.com and they claim that the benefits are from an increased flame propagation rate inside the cylinder which in turn would lead to more fuel being combusted in the cylinder.

but maybe I'm just being too skeptical.

kmterrill · Jan 20, 2006

Actually, it does look this has some merit. But I think that the methodology these companies are using just can't add enough hydrogen to do the job...

Here's a paper from MIT that deals with the subject...
http://www.psfc.mit.edu/library1/catalog/reports/2000/05ja/05ja021/05ja021_full.pdf

One from the Swiss...
http://www.lav.ethz.ch/research/projects/actual_projects/Experimentals/H2_ICE

DOE and NASA... (dealing with turbines)
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b23.pdf

70vert · Jan 21, 2006

Hydrogen-boost product in a beater car?

It seems like the Hydrogen-Boost "water can" would hold less volume than the Hy-Drive flat, dvd-player-style unit. But I can imagine the hydrogen-boost water can under a Mustang's fender, but how to fill it easily?

I wish I had a little beater car to try out the Hydrogen-Boost on. I've got a 2.5-year-old Scion and the Mustang, and I've got a bit of concern about trying it on either. The company doesn't seem that well established and the "Formula One Testimonial" with the Brit who stumbled over the word "dynamometer" but "knew a lot about cars, I know all about them" was funny and sounded fishy. But an old Festiva would be perfect.

I was more thinking down the road with the more expensive hy-drive unit, when it comes down in price, but I would love to see someone try this hydrogen-boost unit. If I were in NY I might consider having them install it.

thanks for those links kmterrill . . . I wish I had more of a chemistry background to understand the more detailed papers, but the Swiss one came through loud and clear.

From Left Field: Hydrogen injection - mileage, emissions

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