I have awful luck!

rebelboy194 · May 8, 2012

So due to some current events I broke the block on my 302 by knocking the engine stand it was mounted to over. I now have the chance to get either a good used 302 short block, or a 351 short block straight from the machine shop ready to go. I'm leaning toward the 351 short block just for the potential further down the road. I'm just wondering will my f303 cam work? What kind of power I can expect from the 351 with my ported gt40p heads with the f303 cam if I can use it?

rebelboy194 · May 9, 2012

88LX5.Oh · May 9, 2012

Is the 351 a roller block? If not, you'll have to drill and tap holes in the lifter valley for the hold-down spider since the F303 cam is a roller cam and requires roller lifters. And I'm also thinking that something has to be done to the lifter bosses themselves to accommodate the roller lifters. Someone hopefully will come in and add a little more knowledge but that's all I know off the top of my head.

rebelboy194 · May 9, 2012

Ok i appreciate it. I'm not sure if it's a roller block, but I can always sell the cam and I already have to sell the intake to get a 351 intake.

2000xp8 · May 9, 2012

Well, not sure if it's bad luck or you are just accident prone. Not sure i could knock over an engine stand with an engine on it over if i was purposely trying to.

As for what to use, go with the 302.
A 351 needs 351 swap parts that add up.
All putting it together with parts that are barely good enough for a 302 will do for you, is give you an expensive underpowered overweight 351.

Realistically, if i were you i'd probably buy an explorer engine, use the shortblock, sell off the heads and intake, and go.

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

I know that the 351 needs swap parts, but honestly I can get it done fairly cheap. I just know that the 351 has the capability of holding a lot more HP with the stock block, and this combo is just to get me a fun little car to drive while I save funds to build it bigger and better. I just don't want the HP restriction of the 302 block.

Vaz88GT · May 10, 2012

rebelboy194 said:
I know that the 351 needs swap parts, but honestly I can get it done fairly cheap. I just know that the 351 has the capability of holding a lot more HP with the stock block, and this combo is just to get me a fun little car to drive while I save funds to build it bigger and better. I just don't want the HP restriction of the 302 block.

HP restrictions? Honestly the amount of power you can pull out of a 302 isnt really a restriction, especially street.

Gearbanger 101 · May 10, 2012

One thing I've learned over the years....people rarely follow through with big plans andend up settling for what's within their immediate means.

Ask yourself....am I really going to push a 302 so far, that I'll risk splitting the block? Thats 500hp +/- 50hp or so you're looking at. Do you know what it cost to make that much horsepower? Do you know what has to be done to make that much horsepower? Is it the thought of added cubes that attracts you to the 351W, or are you truley under the impression you won't be satisfied with "only" the power levels a 302 is capable of holding? Be honest with yourself.

I've met plenty of people who set their sights on big goals and go overkill with their parts, only to never reach their goal because the A) ran out of money, B) got in over their head, or C) life just gets in the way.

Personally....I say stick with the 302 block. If you want some displacement and a little added torque, it's cheaper to buy a stroker rotating assembly than it will be to get that 351W up and running into your car....and that's just to get it up and running. Don't buy into the claims of "cheap and easy" horsepower that some guys on the intenet, or local gearhead gathering will feed you. It's your money he's spending, not theirs. And to get a 351W into 302 block splitting territory isn't going to be cheap, or easy.

Really think this one through!

95Vert383AOD · May 10, 2012

If you put 302 parts on there you can always add boost later to compensate for the smaller parts.

2000xp8 · May 10, 2012

rebelboy194 said:
I know that the 351 needs swap parts, but honestly I can get it done fairly cheap. I just know that the 351 has the capability of holding a lot more HP with the stock block, and this combo is just to get me a fun little car to drive while I save funds to build it bigger and better. I just don't want the HP restriction of the 302 block.

That hp restriction takes quite a bit of power and money to exceed.

If you were to say you were putting on some TW 190's or afr 185's, i'd say for sure goto the 351. But your not, you are using a set of heads even when ported are a restriction.

Sounds like you want us to tell you to do a 351.

Me personally, i'd get the 302 together, sell the P heads and put the money you are going to spend on 351 swap parts to good use on a set of quality aluminum heads.
You'll make more power with the 302 using a much lighter engine. Consider the weight of the 351 with iron heads, to a 302 with aluminum heads.

I'm with gearbanger, so many here have all these big aspirations when it comes to their cars. I've been here a long time, and i'd say 1 out of 50 actually finish a plan.
The fact that you are using gt40p heads to begin with suggests that you are on a budget (nothing wrong with that), but that budget is far from one that splits blocks.

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

I agree fully with everything you are saying. I don't want you guys to tell me to go with the 351, it just seems to make sense in my mind at the moment. I appreciate everything you guys are telling me. I'm just trying to figure out which I should go with. I'm on a budget, yes. However, I will build the engine like I want eventually. I'm just looking at it like this: if I can go ahead and get the 351, and then spend 150-200 dollars to do the swap that wont be too bad. Then I can build the motor which should make around the same hp as the 302 combo(according to my research, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.) Then when I save some money, and maybe deploy again I'll be able to come back and build the motor I want, and not have to worry about the block. Or I can build the 302(Buying the two short blocks cost the same)which has 85000 miles on it, throw all my stuff together on it, and bolt it in the car. I save 150-200 dollars this way, make the same power, but have to worry about later down the road when I build it up if I'm going to crack the block. Now let me explain my expectations with this car. It will be a street strip car with a 5 speed forever. I'd like a power range that is not too radical for a standard trans. I was thinking 600-650 hp, now if that is too much for a standard please inform me about what I should be shooting for. I do not want to have to put an auto in this car to go fast in a straight line. I'm just trying to figure out what to do to not have to redo everything down the road due to block problems. Again, If you think I can do what I am wanting to accomplish with the 302, then please let me know. I'm not trying to tell you guys which engine I want you to tell me to put in the car. I just want honest opinions about the combo and how you would go about it if your expectations from the car were the same as mine. Thanks.

2000xp8 · May 10, 2012

600-650hp is going to take well over 10 grand just for the engine,and require a tremec tko trans which will cost you over 3 grand, then a fuel system and all the supporting parts, figure another 3k there.

There is a reason only a couple people here make more than 500rwhp, it's because by the time you are done, you are in it 25 grand. Just look at the cost of an aftercooled t trim or procharger D1.

A modest 450rwhp goal is a reasonable, i'd start by shooting for that.

If you think putting a 351 in your car can be done for only an extra $150, you better start shopping around. The headers alone are $250 and up.
Do a search for the 351 swap parts list, i'd figure a grand and up just in those parts.

I know this is going to sound terrible, please don't be insulted, but it's very hard to take someone serious about 600hp, when they are putting a set of $250 iron heads on their car as we speak.
Not saying you will never meet your goal, but as time goes on things change and right now it sounds like you are planning 10 years in advance. That's way too far to look forward, do the best you can now and enjoy it as is.

88LX5.Oh · May 10, 2012

2000xp8 said:
If you think putting a 351 in your car can be done for only an extra $150, you better start shopping around. The headers alone are $250 and up.

Well if he plans to build up a nice motor LATER, he could use factory Fox headers. They'll bolt up and with how small they are I bet they would fit.

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

Ok 200xp8 I understand where you are coming from. I guess I'm just thinking straight up go big or go home, when I should be thinking(How much do I need to be satisfied?) Honestly my goal is put the car in 11's and still be able to cruise it back and forth to work. Realistically, I don't need anywhere near 600-650 hp to get the car to do that. I could go with the 302, and the combo I already have with some susp. upgrades and tires and maybe a little spray and get there. I see where you are coming from, just keep hearing that voice in the back of my mind telling me how much potential there is in the 351. Definitely leaning toward sticking with the 302 though.

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

The only reson I say I can do the swap fairly cheap is I can get the dipstick, oil pan, and pickup tube off ebay for 50 bucks, the flexplate for bout 25 used, then just a balancer, and intake, and accessory brackets which arent really expensive. That's the only reason I can say I can do it cheap, and I have bbk shorty headers which are about the same size and the original fox body headers and may fit, but I'm not sure and was already looking at buying new headers anyway.

Gearbanger 101 · May 10, 2012

Oh man, $150-$200 won't even get you close to dropping that 351W in there. I'm not sure where you're seeing the pan swap parts on EBay for $50, but I just found them there for $130. The 302 headers won't work. It's not that the port configuration is any different, it's that the engine is 2" taller and will put the stock 302 headers collector into the firewall. Headers are a must...and if you're going to build a bad assed engine are you going to skimp on the supporting components? It'll cost you a lot more if you've got to buy the parts twice, so look into full length headers at least 1 5/8" in diameter. Count on dropping $400 on those.

You'll also need the 351W oil pump and pump drive shaft, 28oz balancer, flywheel as well as motor mounts. You'll need front accessory brackets for the A/C and power steering if you plan on keeping those.

Count on spending some money on an intake manifold....at least $600. While you're at it, price out a cowl induction hood, since there's no way that 3w1W is going to clear the stock hood line without massacring the factory one.

Gonna run a roller cam? Better pick yourself up another distributor, with the right gear.
...and you haven't even gotten into gaskets, or fluids yet.

Realistically....count on dropping $1,000+ just to get it in there, up and running. And you haven't even started to make any power yet.

2000xp8 · May 10, 2012

Rebel, go big or go home works when you are on an unlimited budget.
Trust me, you don't want to be one of those guys that have their car filled with a pile of parts that are worth a tenth of what you payed for them piled up in the hatch sitting in your driveway for years.

Try this on. Get a 302, get some twisted wedge heads and the supporting parts to run them.
Slowly build your 351 up, when you are ready, send the TW's out to be CNC'ed by TEA, then slap together all the parts you are collecting for the 351.

Nothing wrong with planning for the future, but you play T ball at the moment, no sense in picking out the bat and glove you are going to use if you make it to the yankees.

I don't care what you do to prepare, you aren't going to future proof any setup.

A car that sits in your driveway in parts is useless, it's a nightmare situation you want to avoid. At all times you want your car to be running. So building an entire back up engine while it runs is your best bet.
Using a good set of aluminum heads right now will make your mods worthwhile, and if you don't ever get around to that 351, well, you still have a nice potent car to drive.

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

Honestly you guys really have opened my eyes. I'm looking at it now, and hell I can build a 331 or 347 for just a little more coin than just dropping the 351 in the car and put double the power to the wheels.

95Vert383AOD · May 10, 2012

On a N/A 351 it gets expensive. But you can get great power out of them boosted....Because its still a 351.

Many examples of budget builds and how to get there. Don't be afraid to scrounge around a junk yard. You CAN get 11's and 12's out of a iron headed 351. by merely turboing it later. Get the motor in the car then work on it after that.

So many nay sayers in here. a stock 302 makes god awful sub 200hp at the wheels. But it doesnt stop people from buying a top end kit. Its just a top end kit on a 351 will cost an extra $1500 roughly between the extra price on the heads and the more expensive 351 intake required.

But if you want to make a N/A 500hp car then yes you're looking at 10k easily.

http://members.jasnetworks.net/mjsitar/DadTT/dadTT.htm

rebelboy194 · May 10, 2012

I don't mind going boosted, and I think I can piece together a turbo kit for less than 1000 dollars. The thing that these guys have been trying to get me to realize is, I can spen 200 on a 302 short block and bolt everything on and go. Then if I want the 351 I can get the block and start working on it, and eventually when I get the motor built and ready to go I can swap it. This way instead of spending who knows really how much money just to get the car back on the road, I can get it running and driving and then work on building the big motor.

I have awful luck!

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