I need some insight on an oil leak!

chimchim · Jun 4, 2005

I had my PI heads installed in November, but I only put about 2,000 miles on my car since then. Well, I got under the car to check some things out and I had a drop of oil in the middle of the oil filter on the bottom. I was able to tighten it up about 1/8 turn. There was no oil residue on the top of the filter. This is on the driver's side. I looked at my valve cover and the front cover and the cylinder head in that area and I can't feel anything. It's a Fram Toughguard filter. Was the filter too loose and leaking or is Fram a s h i t t y filter or should I be looking at something else that might not have been put back together correctly after my swap??? Thanks.

MyEarsHurt · Jun 4, 2005

From what I have heard and seen, fram oil filters are horrible. There is a really good in depth thread around here somewhere about oil filters. I always use motorcraft now. As for the oil leak, just turn the car on and look underneath, if it drips while running then get under the car and look around. I had a slight oil leak after my headswap. One of my oil gulley plugs in the back of the head wasnt tight enough. That was a PITA to get to, but I got another 1 turn on it and that solved my problem. Good luck man.

dsg_gt2004 · Jun 4, 2005

chimchim said:
I had my PI heads installed in November, but I only put about 2,000 miles on my car since then. Well, I got under the car to check some things out and I had a drop of oil in the middle of the oil filter on the bottom. I was able to tighten it up about 1/8 turn. There was no oil residue on the top of the filter. This is on the driver's side. I looked at my valve cover and the front cover and the cylinder head in that area and I can't feel anything. It's a Fram Toughguard filter. Was the filter too loose and leaking or is Fram a s h i t t y filter or should I be looking at something else that might not have been put back together correctly after my swap??? Thanks.

it was probably the oil filters seal...(rubber rings)

chimchim · Jun 4, 2005

MyEarsHurt said:
From what I have heard and seen, fram oil filters are horrible. There is a really good in depth thread around here somewhere about oil filters. I always use motorcraft now. As for the oil leak, just turn the car on and look underneath, if it drips while running then get under the car and look around. I had a slight oil leak after my headswap. One of my oil gulley plugs in the back of the head wasnt tight enough. That was a PITA to get to, but I got another 1 turn on it and that solved my problem. Good luck man.

Ok, it may not be the filter. On the driver's side PI head in the front, it looks like there are two holes where something might be mounted on the 99-04 cars??? I still have the old NPI heads and these two holes are not there. I wouldn't think the holes actually go into the head, but if they did, would they leak oil???

I've spent 1/2 hour under the car while it's running and there is nothing. I go take it for a ride and come back and there's oil in and around the oil filter and right where the block meets the head where these two holes are. Nothing pouring. It's just damp and I can't tell where it's coming from.

Any more ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

chimchim · Jun 4, 2005

If the filter was loose and leaking, could it actually spray upwards when under pressure and that's what made the block wet?

stangman · Jun 4, 2005

chimchim said:
If the filter was loose and leaking, could it actually spray upwards when under pressure and that's what made the block wet?

more likely that the air caught the oil when you were driving & threw it up

MyEarsHurt · Jun 4, 2005

chimchim said:
Ok, it may not be the filter. On the driver's side PI head in the front, it looks like there are two holes where something might be mounted on the 99-04 cars??? I still have the old NPI heads and these two holes are not there. I wouldn't think the holes actually go into the head, but if they did, would they leak oil???

Which holes are you talking about? From what I remember, there are the holes to mount the chain tensioner but I cant recall any other holes? The only holes that you need be concerned about being plugged are the ones on the back of the head, the other holes would all be covered by the timing cover anyway. I would say replace the filter and see what happens. There is a little rubber seal around the filter and if that is messed up or fell off when someone was installing it then that could be the leak. I would say start with changing the filter out and see what happens, if there is still a leak, then cean up the bottom of the engine really good with a shop towel and see if you can at least determine what side of the engine the leak is coming from. From the sound of it, its the driver side. Did you re-use your old timing cover gaskets when you did the PI swap? Did you check the bottom of the timing cover for leaks, like right around the power steering pump?

chimchim · Jun 4, 2005

MyEarsHurt said:
Which holes are you talking about? From what I remember, there are the holes to mount the chain tensioner but I cant recall any other holes? The only holes that you need be concerned about being plugged are the ones on the back of the head, the other holes would all be covered by the timing cover anyway. I would say replace the filter and see what happens. There is a little rubber seal around the filter and if that is messed up or fell off when someone was installing it then that could be the leak. I would say start with changing the filter out and see what happens, if there is still a leak, then cean up the bottom of the engine really good with a shop towel and see if you can at least determine what side of the engine the leak is coming from. From the sound of it, its the driver side. Did you re-use your old timing cover gaskets when you did the PI swap? Did you check the bottom of the timing cover for leaks, like right around the power steering pump?

I didn't do the swap. I got the kit from Parkway so I know there was a new timing cover gasket (s) . I contacted the mechanics that did the work today and they told me that it's prolly the filter. I'm doing exactly what you said first thing tomorrow. It's time to change my oil anyway. The holes that I'm referring to are on the side of the front of the driver's side head. They are right above the power steering pump.

I'll change the filter tomorrow and hopefully something was / is messed up with the old gasket.

The funny thing is that I laid under that car for 15 minutes today while it was idling looking for something and nothing. Then I take it for a ride and come back and there's oil all around the filter. Maybe it's leaking only when it's under pressure?????

Thanks for your help!

01SN8K · Jun 5, 2005

to find solutions eliminate some culprits one by one. an oil filter is not expensive so try replacing the one on the car. degrease and wash the motor. run the car or even better get a second person to raise rpms while you look for leaks. if no one is available then run the car but not very fast. hold the rpms steady and coast so that the car has pressure. this will help you determine where the leak is at without the wind blowing it everywhere and coating everything in oil.

chimchim · Jun 5, 2005

I changed the oil and filter this morning and took it for a short ride and I don't see any oil. There are two exposed holes on the driver's side head on the side of the head next to the front near the timing chain cover. They are located on extrusions from the head like something might be mounted there for another vehicle with the 4.6. On the old NPI heads one of the holes is there and the other is not tapped. I swear every time I see the oil there is a drop coming from this hole that's in the PI head and not in the NPI head. I put a bolt in there and we'll see what happens.

Thanks again for the help, guys.

chimchim · Jun 5, 2005

Ahhhh! The saga continues.

It seems as though it's still leaking but not as bad??? I haven't taken it too far, though. The filter is not the culprit. The oil is coming from somewhere right above the power steering pump and near the junction of the head, front cover, and block. None of the gaskets in that area are seeping, but there's a drop of oil right on the bottom of the head near that hole I spoke of. I wipe it all off, take it for a ride and there's another drop or two of oil in the same spot, but no obvious place where it's coming from. It's almost like it's being sprayed or dropped into that area??? The valve cover is not leaking, either. It was on the end of the bolt that I put in. I put another turn on the bolt. Hopefully, this is it.

MyEarsHurt · Jun 5, 2005

There are 4 bolts (maybe 3 but I think four) that hold the power steering pump to the timing cover and to the block. If those are not plugged then that could be the problem. Those bolts are a real PITA to get in to without draining the power steering fluid out. I hope your mechanic didnt skip one of those bolts because it was too hard to get it. When I did the swap, I had to use an open end wrench to get at it, and it took several several tries in order to get it. I dont know where you put your bolt, pics would help, but let us know if that worked.

chimchim · Jun 5, 2005

MyEarsHurt said:
There are 4 bolts (maybe 3 but I think four) that hold the power steering pump to the timing cover and to the block. If those are not plugged then that could be the problem. Those bolts are a real PITA to get in to without draining the power steering fluid out. I hope your mechanic didnt skip one of those bolts because it was too hard to get it. When I did the swap, I had to use an open end wrench to get at it, and it took several several tries in order to get it. I dont know where you put your bolt, pics would help, but let us know if that worked.

I think you're right. Now, that you say it, I will go look now. Would it just squirt out of that hole because that would be the exact area???

Mike97gt · Jun 5, 2005

chimchim said:
Ok, it may not be the filter. On the driver's side PI head in the front, it looks like there are two holes where something might be mounted on the 99-04 cars??? I still have the old NPI heads and these two holes are not there. I wouldn't think the holes actually go into the head, but if they did, would they leak oil???

I've spent 1/2 hour under the car while it's running and there is nothing. I go take it for a ride and come back and there's oil in and around the oil filter and right where the block meets the head where these two holes are. Nothing pouring. It's just damp and I can't tell where it's coming from.

Any more ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

well you have a PI swaped car. i wonder if you got some heads removed from a PI car that had the oil leak problem thats in a TSB .

some PI 4.6's had a head gasket contamination problem around the high pressure oil feed and it will leak from the front of the head on the drivers side right where you said it was leaking from. and on the pass side ( it is possible too leak from both heads) it will leak from the rear of the head and drip into the bellhousing.

now you may only have the problem on the drivers side head. mine has this problem on the passenger head so mine is leaking at the back of the motor.

this will cause no problems other than a oil leak. thats why i am waiting untill winter too do mine.

good luck.

chimchim · Jun 5, 2005

MikeZ28 said:
well you have a PI swaped car. i wonder if you got some heads removed from a PI car that had the oil leak problem thats in a TSB .

some PI 4.6's had a head gasket contamination problem around the high pressure oil feed and it will leak from the front of the head on the drivers side right where you said it was leaking from. and on the pass side ( it is possible too leak from both heads) it will leak from the rear of the head and drip into the bellhousing.

now you may only have the problem on the drivers side head. mine has this problem on the passenger head so mine is leaking at the back of the motor.

this will cause no problems other than a oil leak. thats why i am waiting untill winter too do mine.

good luck.

Thanks Mike. I got my heads from Parkway so they should be 04 Romeos.
What year was that TSB for?

I think Ears might be right, but the bolt that I think is missing is on the upper part of the power steering pump and into the block. It WOULDN'T be a PITA to get to. I don't have the right size bolt in the garage. One bigger and one smaller. Anyway, I could get to it easily with a ratchet and 12-inch extension. Would you happen to know what size bolt that is and how long. AND, is it threaded the whole way or not? Thanks.

Mike97gt · Jun 6, 2005

chimchim said:
Thanks Mike. I got my heads from Parkway so they should be 04 Romeos.
What year was that TSB for?

I think Ears might be right, but the bolt that I think is missing is on the upper part of the power steering pump and into the block. It WOULDN'T be a PITA to get to. I don't have the right size bolt in the garage. One bigger and one smaller. Anyway, I could get to it easily with a ratchet and 12-inch extension. Would you happen to know what size bolt that is and how long. AND, is it threaded the whole way or not? Thanks.

ohh these were new heads ? then you should be fine as far as the head gasket sealing problem tsb goes. the TSB is for the earlier PI heads..

how big of a oil leak are we talking here. unless it is literally pissing out i would look at the front cover. as far as i know none of the external accesory bolt holes in the 4.6 head go into a oil feed or return. and if that was it you would have a MASSIVE oil leak and the car would not be driveable.

now the timming chain and other parts under the front cover is low presure splash lubed so i would look at your front cover closely.

MyEarsHurt · Jun 6, 2005

MikeZ28 said:
as far as i know none of the external accesory bolt holes in the 4.6 head go into a oil feed or return. and if that was it you would have a MASSIVE oil leak and the car would not be driveable.

I was thinking about your leak today and i was gonna post the same thing that Mike said here. I dont know if those bolts that hold the power steering pump to the block/timing cover actually go all the way to touch oil. I would say clean up the underside of the pump really good and get under there, then have a friend give it some gas, or just move the throttle cable under the hood to get the pressure built up. See if its leaking where we think its leaking. I know you said you already looked under the car while it was running, but if you have someone hit the gas while you are there, then that will give a little better indication.

chimchim · Jun 6, 2005

I think it's the front cover. After some further research I noticed a small amount of oil dripping from the AC Compressor on the other side. I think the front cover/head/block junction is leaking on both sides. I know the correct way to fix it is to remove the front cover and put new gaskets in there and some RTV at those junctions, but is there a dumber, cheaper way to fix it???

chimchim · Jun 6, 2005

Ok, it's leaking from the front cover/head/block junction. I seen it this time. As I said above, I know I should remove the cover and put new gaskets in there and a little more RTV in those areas, but how do I know that will fix it???????? It only has about 2,500 miles on it since the swap. I haven't spoken to my mechanic yet, but what happened when they put it back together??????? Is there anything else they could've missed or is this a tricky spot for everyone? Also, how long of a job is this? Looks like a good time to put pullies on this mother f'r since it'll be all apart anyway.

Thanks Mike and Ears for all your help and support.

MyEarsHurt · Jun 6, 2005

First thing I would do is go through all the bolts on the front cover and make sure they are tight. It could be a stupid problem, like one of the bolts near the bottom backing off a little bit. If they are all tight, then remove the belt, the coil packs, the water pump pulley, and the crank pulley. You should be okay to leave the alternator bolted on because its not attached to the timing cover. There are four bolts on the bottom of the timing cover, small bolts, 8 or 10 mm i think, that you will have to get under the car to remove. Also, while under the car, you can remove the power steering pump assembly. There are 3 or 4 bolts holding it in place. There is a crank position sensor near the bottom of the timing cover, on the passenger side, pull that out, there is also one on the upper part of the driver side timing cover, pull that out too. Once all thats done, the cover should slip right off.... you shouldnt have to remove the valve covers...but then again, you may have to, not quite sure. Then get a new set of these....

http://secure.50resto.com/product1.cfm?SID=1&Product_ID=2683&Category_ID=789

And then put it all back together. ask me if you need any help taking it apart or putting it back together, i just did my pi swap two weeks ago so its still pretty fresh in my head.

I need some insight on an oil leak!

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