Laser, are the adapter plates just something that go like
Manifold
PI gaskets
Adapter Plate
NPI gaskets
NPI head
or what? And when you say adapter plates are you talking livernois (sp) or some other brand? How tall are they??
the adapter plates cost $90. I don't find that to be very expensive for CNC machined aluinium parts.
If one uses the adapter plates does one need a new hood or will it fit under the stock hood?
Laser, are the adapter plates just something that go like
Manifold
PI gaskets
Adapter Plate
NPI gaskets
NPI head
or what? And when you say adapter plates are you talking livernois (sp) or some other brand? How tall are they??
that is correct and yes livernois makes them and so does HP. Not sure how much Livernois are but HPs are $90.
http://www.hiperformancesolutions.com/order_page.html
as for how thick they are i am not sure
We had this debate in our shop a long time ago when we heard that guys were trying to use RTV the somehow adapt these PI intakes to a non-PI head. We thought it was a joke at first, but sure enough they were serious. Then due to popular demand from customers and friends, we were asked to use our flow bench to do some testing, I happily obliged.
The below flow data was obtained from a Superflow SF-600 testing a bone stock non-PI head, the same non-PI head with RTV between the PI intake and non-PI head, and the same non-PI head with the correct adaptor plates. I let someone else apply the RTV that had done it before, I have a professional reputation to uphold.
Stock non-PI head:
View attachment 403104
Stock non-PI head with the RTV:
View attachment 403106
Stock non-PI head with correct adaptors:
View attachment 403107
As you can see the graph displaying the non-PI head without the adaptor plates is indicative of what is referred to as boundary layer shear and some mid-lift tumble. That is why you see the mid-lift surges and poor overall flow compared to the adaptor plates. The mismatch between the non-PI head and the PI intake are responsible for this. Boundary layer shear and tumble not only hurt flow and velocity characteristics, but they also inhibit the the proper pressure wave sequence that aids in scavenging during overlap, which is critical especially on stock non-PI heads and cams and will hurt power. This power is hurt especially in the low to mid RPM's where most of your street driving occurs.
Then we spent an entire weekend on our neighbor's engine dyno (SF-901). The adaptor plates showed a 13 HP peak increase over the RTV'ed intake. Now that may not sound like much of a loss, but the area under the curve it's what's really important, especially on a street car. There was as much as a 21 HP increase under the curve between 2k RPM’s and 4500 RPM’s. Some shops we have spoken with have see a bigger difference under the curve than we found. That is very significant especially on a street driven car.
There are 3 main types of fuel injector spray patterns, conical, fan, and pulse stream. We have a fan type pattern. The absolute ONLY thing that will affect the type of fuel injector pattern is to change the type of injector. Raising the bottom of the intake manifold runner ½” off the entrance to the cylinder head intake runner has absolutely no effect on the fuel injector pattern. The air being drawn into the cylinder is moving at 550-600 MPH and sometimes approaching sonic speed. The instant the fuel leaves the injector, it is immediately pulled into the extremely fast moving air charge and immediately conforms to the geometry of the airstream. The extra ½” that the adaptors provide not only help to increase fuel atomization by keeping the fuel suspended for a split second longer, but they effectively increase the volume of the intake runner and therefore increase power by allowing more air/fuel to be drawn in during overlap.
Adaptor plates may not be cheap, but there is no question that they make more power and improve fuel economy.
What was the process used in the application of RTV? Was it applied in the PI intake runner to reshape it to fit the NPI head? This was common a few years ago but has since been replaced with the simple process of using PI gasket and a small dab of RTV on the coolant passage. Also what kind of adapter plates were used and where did they come from? I would think anyone successfully producing a set of NPI to PI Intake adapter plates and having a flow chart to back them up would have made them available to sell almost imediately! So i'm not saying i think your charts are bogus and you just made them up on your computer to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about but well yes that is what i'm saying!!! I think your so-called tests and flow charts are total
Droptop is right you are a lair.We had this debate in our shop a long time ago when we heard that guys were trying to use RTV the somehow adapt these PI intakes to a non-PI head. We thought it was a joke at first, but sure enough they were serious. Then due to popular demand from customers and friends, we were asked to use our flow bench to do some testing, I happily obliged.
The below flow data was obtained from a Superflow SF-600 testing a bone stock non-PI head, the same non-PI head with RTV between the PI intake and non-PI head, and the same non-PI head with the correct adaptor plates. I let someone else apply the RTV that had done it before, I have a professional reputation to uphold.
Stock non-PI head:
View attachment 403077
Stock non-PI head with the RTV:
View attachment 403079
Stock non-PI head with correct adaptors:
View attachment 403081
As you can see the graph displaying the non-PI head without the adaptor plates is indicative of what is referred to as boundary layer shear and some mid-lift tumble. That is why you see the mid-lift surges and poor overall flow compared to the adaptor plates. The mismatch between the non-PI head and the PI intake are responsible for this. Boundary layer shear and tumble not only hurt flow and velocity characteristics, but they also inhibit the the proper pressure wave sequence that aids in scavenging during overlap, which is critical especially on stock non-PI heads and cams and will hurt power. This power is hurt especially in the low to mid RPM's where most of your street driving occurs.
Then we spent an entire weekend on our neighbor's engine dyno (SF-901). The adaptor plates showed a 13 HP peak increase over the RTV'ed intake. Now that may not sound like much of a loss, but the area under the curve it's what's really important, especially on a street car. There was as much as a 21 HP increase under the curve between 2k RPM’s and 4500 RPM’s. Some shops we have spoken with have see a bigger difference under the curve than we found. That is very significant especially on a street driven car.
There are 3 main types of fuel injector spray patterns, conical, fan, and pulse stream. We have a fan type pattern. The absolute ONLY thing that will affect the type of fuel injector pattern is to change the type of injector. Raising the bottom of the intake manifold runner ½” off the entrance to the cylinder head intake runner has absolutely no effect on the fuel injector pattern. The air being drawn into the cylinder is moving at 550-600 MPH and sometimes approaching sonic speed. The instant the fuel leaves the injector, it is immediately pulled into the extremely fast moving air charge and immediately conforms to the geometry of the airstream. The extra ½” that the adaptors provide not only help to increase fuel atomization by keeping the fuel suspended for a split second longer, but they effectively increase the volume of the intake runner and therefore increase power by allowing more air/fuel to be drawn in during overlap.
Adaptor plates may not be cheap, but there is no question that they make more power and improve fuel economy.
I'm still waiting for somebody with real, not hearsay, data to dis-prove anything I have posted. I'm waiting.
When you use the adaptor kits supplied by people like Livernois, not only are the adaptor plates tapered to go from the PI manifold to the non-PI head, but the PI manfold is machined as well to properly align to the adaptor plates.
On our testing and some other shops including Livernois that I have talked to, when you use a correctly machined PI intake manifold and adaptor plates and the correct tune, a 30-35 RWHP can be expected. You'll be lucky to get over 20 RWHP if you do it the wrong way by applying RTV instead of the adaptor plates. It's just common sense.
Don't believe me? No problem, call Livernois., but I suspect the haters will just say that Livernois is just trying to push their adaptor kit.
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