Kb 2.2l or turbo-kit?

Daggar said:

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WOW.
What kind of track times do you average?

So are you saying that you're under the mistaken impression that there's no parasistic loss on a turbo? If so, that's not the case. Granted the parasitic loss is LESS than what it is for a crank driven blower but it exists none the less and is still a percentage of the total output. Any time you restrict an exhaust, it costs you power.

As for your boost comparison let's look at this a moment. I'll even give the benefit of the doubt and say that the KB combo was running a full 8 lbs of boost (which is not the case). Let's add 2 more lbs of boost at an average of 30 HP per lb. and subtract 6 for a 10% parasitic loss. That leaves us at 441 HP with 10 psi (actually lees but again giving the benefit of doubt). We're within 20 HP of one another which is not out of the realm of possibility for a Twin screw vs. a turbo. What you WILL see upside down is the torque. Twin screws make more in terms of torque than they do in HP and 10 psi from a 2.2L KB feels like getting hit in the gut.

In reference to your gain from 10 psi to 12 psi. If you read through the documentation available for a KB, you'll not that it's more efficient up top than down below. I think that you would find that though there may be trade offs between the two in torque vs. HP, that they'd be pretty damned close respectively. Go out into the real world and get behind the wheel of a KB powered car. Comparing internet dyno's is really a useless exercise if you don't have any seat time to base your references off of. Many times the trade off in HP from a turbo vs. the instant torque provided by a twin screw can break even on the track. Where the problem comes in, is being able to put that power to the ground and have enough traction to pull it off. If I were more involved with pulling quarter miles, I'd probably have gone with the turbo myself. There's something to be said for that delay in building torque. It helps to keep the tires planted if there is a gradual build and track times would often be more consistant. I was once where you are and did all I could to cinvince myself that turbos were god. hehe It's just not the case. I'll go back to what I said before and say that application and desire will determine what's best in a power adder. There's no one type of power adder that's better than all others in every area. The twin screw and Eaton just happen to hold the title for torque and instant response. That's their niche and what they were designed for. Positive displacement superchargers discplace a predetermined amount of air volume per revolution regardless of RPM. It's what makes them so quick to react and torque monsters all at the same time. Boost pressures are a side effect for a KB, not an actual rating of potential. This is where we start getting into the efficiency of everything downline of the actual autorotor itself. Not a conversation really worth having unless you're VERY familiar with the operation of PD type blower and the differences between a roots type and screw type blower.

What I looked for and could not find was Bob Kennedy's former KB track Mustang. It sported roughly 600+ HP and 760 ft/lbs of torque on a built motor with 12-14 lbs of boost and pump gas. Since Kenne Bell made it impossible to order their kits from anyone but Kenne Bell, he's not been featuring that car. It's a shame. Kenne Bell sometimes seems to go out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot sometimes.

Hey I'm not putting the KB down in anyway what so ever as there was a time I myself wanted one, than I woke up. Yes it's great to have instant torque, theres no feeling like it. BUT, what I did want was a nasty street car which produced a 10sec 1/4 mile time. As you can see my combo in my sig, since the motor is not in I have decided to sell the blower and go turbo. Many reasons why.
A) Good gas mileage. Who here can say they have 500rwhp and get 20mpg?? Not too many.
B) With 500rwhp in mind and a stock block, less drag is better because it's just that much less stress on the motor
C) Power!!!! Who wants a STREET car that will produce 500rwhp at 6,000 rpms????? Not me.....After doing homework after homework a turbo is just much better. MUCH, MUCH, more room to grow over a blower, kennebell, paxton, ANY BLOWER. Being a street car, much better street manners. Can up the boost by a knob. How cool is that!!!!!
D) Sleeper. Yes I know with h/c/i it's not technically a sleeper but you sure as hell won't hear a wine coming from the blower. So until I spool, its just h/c/i and runs 12'.
E) Finally, look at the 03 cobras. With a kb they can produce 600+rwhp!!! Great Right??? Ever see ones 1/4 time. GARBAGE!!!! I run faster with 450rwhp. We build hp because hp=speed, correct? Therefore build high hp and run fast, not just show off the torque curve of your dyno graph.

whoops double post

Poor 1/4 mile times on a KB equipped 03? How many have you actually whitnessed? I see KB swaps performed that are rewarded with 9.99 and better time slips in the quarter mile. What did it cost? A KB, fuel injectors, Fuel pump, and dyno tune.

It's not a matter that you "woke up". Instead it's a matter that fit your particular desire for power adder.

Daggar does the KB for the 5.0 sound like the 4.6 Liter ones??? That wine would be a great accompaniment to long tubes off-road h-pipe abd flows.

The blower itself is the EXACT same blower that's used on the 4.6L cars. The only differneces between the kits are teh manifold that are used to mate them to their application. There are 3 Autorotor blowers produced by Kenne Bell.

1.5L
2.2L
2.4L

There's also a 1.7L but it's just a modification to the 1.5L unit.

Each has efficiency characteristics that different from the other. The 2.2L seems to have the best thermal efficiency in the higher ranges but of course produces less air volume per revolution than the 2.4L

So to answer your question: Yes... the blower itself sounds the same given equal boost values. It's the same blower.

Daggar said:

Poor 1/4 mile times on a KB equipped 03? How many have you actually whitnessed? I see KB swaps performed that are rewarded with 9.99 and better time slips in the quarter mile. What did it cost? A KB, fuel injectors, Fuel pump, and dyno tune.

It's not a matter that you "woke up". Instead it's a matter that fit your particular desire for power adder.

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Guy down the street ran 10.9 on slicks launching. Sure thats good, but for the 25k cobra, plus 5grand kb and only run 10's is a harsh explination to the fox who does it with a junkyard 2grand turbo kit. Sure one can run 9.9, lots of factors, race gas, high boost, intercooler, nitrous, yada yada. Theres all motored 306's running 9's too but when power to 1/4 time ratio is presented, turbo comes out on top.

Ok... You win.. Turbo is God in all areas and there's no substitute. Just let us all know what your turbo kit cost you when it's all done, in the car, and tuned then let us know how deep in the 9s you got with it.

My dyno concedes to your internet dyno.

Daggar if i were to install a blowzilla/flowzilla KB 2.2L to a basically stock 5.0 engine what else would i need make it run smooth or what do i need that isnt included in the kit......i would be going with the big gun because i plan on a 347 and some AFR heads down the road.

If you plan to install it yourself then my list would include:

Wideband AFR meter capable of datalogging
255L Fuel Pump
42 lb injectors
75mm or larger MAF
75mm or larger TB
Fuel pressure gauge
Vac/Boost gauge
Custom tune or TwEECer/Anderson PMS

You may also need an upgraded coil or Kenne Bell Boost-A-Spark depending on how much boost you end up running.

If you opt for the Custom Tune then you really don't need the wideband. You will also not need (of course) the TwEECer/PMS.

Both the Blowzilla and Blowzilla/Flowzilla kits are capable of splitting a stock block right down the middle but yeah... you'll have plenty of room to grow.

Daggar said:

Ok... You win.. Turbo is God in all areas and there's no substitute. Just let us all know what your turbo kit cost you when it's all done, in the car, and tuned then let us know how deep in the 9s you got with it.

My dyno concedes to your internet dyno.

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Will do figuring my kit is homemade by me it won't cost nearly as much as your kb did. When its ready I'll let you know so I can blow the top portion of your kb off

hellion kit will make more power than the 2.2kb anyday!!
also all the tq is at high end = less tire spin = fater!!
go with the turbo

last question i promise daggar.....do you recommend a certain CAI to go with the KB?

ms93gt said:

Will do figuring my kit is homemade by me it won't cost nearly as much as your kb did. When its ready I'll let you know so I can blow the top portion of your kb off

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LOL... now you're just talking smack. From a stoplight, your ass whoopin will be over before you've realized you were just smoked by a KB.

CAMAROEATER01 said:

last question i promise daggar.....do you recommend a certain CAI to go with the KB?

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Nope, I sure don't. Positive displacement blowers are picky about inlet restrictions. 3.5 inch or better in whatever configuration you can find and put together should do you well.

Daggar said:

LOL... now you're just talking smack. From a stoplight, your ass whoopin will be over before you've realized you were just smoked by a KB.

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lol I doubt that one daggar figuring I'm gunning for the mid-low 10's.

Daggar said:

Ok... You win.. Turbo is God in all areas and there's no substitute. Just let us all know what your turbo kit cost you when it's all done, in the car, and tuned then let us know how deep in the 9s you got with it.

My dyno concedes to your internet dyno.

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Ahhh....you've finally come to your senses I see.

millhouse said:

Ahhh....you've finally come to your senses I see.

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Yeah... what could I possibly have been thinking?