Legit ?'s from a GM guy

D

Death Metal T/A

New Member
Aug 4, 2004
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#1
I swear I'm not trolling, nor am I trying to turn this into a "my car is better than your car" type of thread.

This isn't the first time I've said this, but I'm starting to get fed up with my Trans Am ('95 6 speed). I just replaced a bunch of parts, (including my waterpump and optispark) and it's costing me a fortune. I can't really do any of the work myself, because the motor is practically under the windshield. Everything is inaccessible. I'm concerned about a few things however. I'm very interested in selling my car and getting a 96- 98 4.6. I love the body style. I have a few questions though, if you'll humor me.

Any reference I make will be to a 96-98 GT with a 5 speed transmission.

First, I've read in several places that early 4.6's run high 14's- low 15's bone stock. Is this true? The thing that throws up a red flag is that many people claim to run low 13's nearly stock with only a few bolt ons. My car is probably in the mid to high 13's and I'm putting 260+ to the wheels. A lot of people say that a stock GT only puts 225 or so the the rear wheels. I know that Mustangs weigh a lot less than F-bodies, but what am I missing here? I'd imagine that these people all had to have at least had 4.10's swapped in? What information is incorrect here?

Second (preferably from someone who either ons or has owned an F-body and a Mustang)- How does a Mustang handle in comparison to an F-body? I love the way my car handles. I want something that can take turns at a similar speed and hugs the road just as well as my car does.

Third- Fuel economy: What kind of gas mileage do you guys get? I'd imagine that I'd want to swap to 4.10's ASAP, so what kind of gas mileage do you 5 speed guys with 4.10's pull on average if you drive sensibly? Also, my car calls for premium. Is it the same for a 4.6, or do you guys get to run a lower octane? (in which case I envy you)

Fourth- How reliable are Mustangs? My car was freakin' fantastic up until it hit 100k miles. My clutch went, my thermostat went, my opti and waterpump needed to be replaced, I had to replace hoses in my radiator, now one of my pulleys is obnoxiously loud for some odd reason, my heat is gone, my A/C is gone and I've had to replace my power window motor. I know a lot of this is maintenance, but come on. All of that at only 100k miles is ridiculous. Will I have to deal with the same problems if I go 'Stang? Or are they more reliable?

Fifth- How much easier is it to work under the hood of a 4.6 than an LT1? I used to talk to someone who sold his LT1 for a 4.6. He said he was able to do a H/C/I swap on his 4.6 in the parking lot of his apartment complex, because they're so much easier to work on. I have a lift in my garage and I can't even imagine having to do the headers on my car.

Thanks for any replies. Like I said, I've claimed I was selling my car before, but now I have a job that pays enough that I can afford to do it. I just have to try and figure out if it's practical or not. oh, and I apologize for such a long post.
 
#2
there good for about mid/high 14s depending on what kind of driver you are, 96-98 motors are npi so there 225hp- 290tq, 99-04 are pi engines so there 260hp-302tq, but you can do the h/c/i swap on 96-98 motors and they will make about 270hp, the 4.6 is a very reliable motor good for a few hundred thousand miles is taken care of properly, and yes a ton eiser to work on the a lt1/ls1, i did a head job on my friends 95 z28, what a pain in the ass, gas milage is decent i get about 16-18 depending on how i drive with 373s and you can run 87 oct
 
#3
Death Metal T/A said:
I swear I'm not trolling, nor am I trying to turn this into a "my car is better than your car" type of thread.

This isn't the first time I've said this, but I'm starting to get fed up with my Trans Am ('95 6 speed). I just replaced a bunch of parts, (including my waterpump and optispark) and it's costing me a fortune. I can't really do any of the work myself, because the motor is practically under the windshield. Everything is inaccessible. I'm concerned about a few things however. I'm very interested in selling my car and getting a 96- 98 4.6. I love the body style. I have a few questions though, if you'll humor me.

Any reference I make will be to a 96-98 GT with a 5 speed transmission.

First, I've read in several places that early 4.6's run high 14's- low 15's bone stock. Is this true? The thing that throws up a red flag is that many people claim to run low 13's nearly stock with only a few bolt ons. My car is probably in the mid to high 13's and I'm putting 260+ to the wheels. A lot of people say that a stock GT only puts 225 or so the the rear wheels. I know that Mustangs weigh a lot less than F-bodies, but what am I missing here? I'd imagine that these people all had to have at least had 4.10's swapped in? What information is incorrect here?

Second (preferably from someone who either ons or has owned an F-body and a Mustang)- How does a Mustang handle in comparison to an F-body? I love the way my car handles. I want something that can take turns at a similar speed and hugs the road just as well as my car does.

Third- Fuel economy: What kind of gas mileage do you guys get? I'd imagine that I'd want to swap to 4.10's ASAP, so what kind of gas mileage do you 5 speed guys with 4.10's pull on average if you drive sensibly? Also, my car calls for premium. Is it the same for a 4.6, or do you guys get to run a lower octane? (in which case I envy you)

Fourth- How reliable are Mustangs? My car was freakin' fantastic up until it hit 100k miles. My clutch went, my thermostat went, my opti and waterpump needed to be replaced, I had to replace hoses in my radiator, now one of my pulleys is obnoxiously loud for some odd reason, my heat is gone, my A/C is gone and I've had to replace my power window motor. I know a lot of this is maintenance, but come on. All of that at only 100k miles is ridiculous. Will I have to deal with the same problems if I go 'Stang? Or are they more reliable?

Fifth- How much easier is it to work under the hood of a 4.6 than an LT1? I used to talk to someone who sold his LT1 for a 4.6. He said he was able to do a H/C/I swap on his 4.6 in the parking lot of his apartment complex, because they're so much easier to work on. I have a lift in my garage and I can't even imagine having to do the headers on my car.

Thanks for any replies. Like I said, I've claimed I was selling my car before, but now I have a job that pays enough that I can afford to do it. I just have to try and figure out if it's practical or not. oh, and I apologize for such a long post.
Click to expand...

1. alot of uniformed people dont know that 96-98 gt are different from 99-04s. 96-98s come with 225hp at the flywheel. 99-04s come with 260hp at the fly and put down around 225-230s stock and yes a 96-98 will run high 14s low 15s. 99-04s came with better heads than the 96-98s that explaines the power increase. And yes you can swap over the 99-04 heads cams and intake to a 96-98 and because of the increased compression you will make a little more hp then the 99-04s.

2. mustangs dont handle quite as well as f-bodys (yes i have driven both) but with a few mods they will handle better then a f-fody imop. the thing I like about mustangs is that all the cobra stuff swaps over and is generally cheap and is very noticable. if you end up buying a mustang I feel your first mods should be some kinda suspension kit and a panhard bar from maximum motorsports.

3. I get 25mpg on the freeway with the stock 3.27 gears and unless you get it re-tuned or do a PI swap you will run 87.

4. there are tons of guys on this site with well over 100k with very few issues. I only have 61k and the only things i've had to replace were my battery and one $13 idler pulley that was squeling.

5. Mustangs are way easier to work on then a f-body. I know how the last two cylinders on f-bodys are under the cowl. that isnt the case on mustangs. everything is very acessable compaired to f-bodys. header swaps are a bitch though. do some searching and you will find pics of the engine bay and you will see what i mean.
 
#4
96-98's can go 13's with about 500 bucks in mods.

As stated, they are a bit slower than PI(99-04) cars.

lt1's and ls2's can be hard to access a lot of the parts, including half the block and intake being under the windsheild. 4.6's are not very difficult to work on as far as the outside goes. You can access everything pretty easily.

gas milage is fairly subjective, depending on mods and the way you drive.

I love the 96-98 cars, and wouldnt own any other body style.
 
#5
I agree with the others.I had a 97 Ta for a short time..and to be honest I didnt like the way it handled,I lost it at least 3 times,but never did in my 01 GT.

Way easier to work on than f-bodies.The GT I had didnt have much probs,Had the tranny rebuilt,new clutch done at 85k,but I think those probs were due to an accident a couple years before,other than that just norm maintaince...welll except the week I traded it off the motor mounts needed to be replaced...rubber was really dry.And an altenator last year.

As others have said depends on how you drive as to gas milage.In town i would get around 200 or so on a tank,but on the highway(trips) i would break 300 miles on a tank.But this was with stock 3.27's and stock car.

Only reason I got rid of it was due to the drunk hitting it a few years back made the repainted areas look bad,so it was either repaint or a new one,so I traded for the Mach....:D And lovin it.
 
#6
Pretty much what everyone else has said. A 99-04 PI mustang will be about equal to your stock LT1. The 96-98 will definately be a step down however for a couple hundred bucks you can swap the HCI on the 96-98 to bring it to the same level as the 99-04.

As far as working on the cars goes they are quite easy. Most of the engine is within easy reach with the hood up making most maintenance no big deal, especially compared with what you are used to. If youve got a lift in your garage you will be in heaven.

I have found both my mustangs to be very reliable. Like any car there are those things that tend to go bad easily but for the most part these things are cheap, minor fixes. There are many people on this site with high 6 figure mileage (some with power adders) and the cars are still going strong. Good luck with your decision.
 
#7
Also the 96-98 GT/Cobra's dont weigh very much too, a few weight reduction, like back seats and other things it would be good to go. 3300 all around starting weight w/o driver.
 
#8
Thanks guys!

So it seems that a head swap is the way to go, huh? How much would it cost to port the 99+ heads? I don't know if you guys have anything like this-

http://www.eportworks.com/lt1.html

I'm curious though. I'd imagine that a H/C/I swap could put you into the 12's pretty easily. How hard is it to actually swap those things out? I know it's a nightmare on an LT1.

I've seen that most of the headers for Mustangs have 1 5/8" primaries. Does that flow well enough? Longtubes for LT1's are generally 1 3/4". I guess it's due to the difference in displacement between the motors, right?

I'm hoping this all works out. I'd like to do a lot of weight reduction to whatever I get. Dry cell battery, carbon fiber or fiberglass hood, racing seats, tubular or chromoly K member, chromoly A arms, lose a few things (A/C, rear seats, spare and jack, excess bolts, etc). I think that would show a pretty significant increase in performance :D
 
#12
Yeah thats a little steep,Since I was looking for a new one the last couple weeks or so,I saw a 97 or 98 cobra with something like 70k on the ticker for $7500 neg. at a ford dealer near Houston.On average those year GT's are around 6k right now in this area,or thats just what ive been seeing right now,9k-13k would get a 01-04 GT.Like right now at a local non retail dealer the is an 03 gt,black bullits,chin spoiler,redfire metallic,smoked lenses,gauges,full exhaust,leather,and some bolt-ons...i think its around 12k with something like 60k miles.
 
#13
With near all the bolt ons and more than likely a tune it is possible to get a 96-98 GT to run in the upper 13's.

I wouldnt bank on it being a 12 second car with a PI head/cam/intake swap, but it should be down in the low 13's assuming you have all the other bolt ons and can drive. A 12 second pass IS possible, just dont set money on it, lol.

4.6's dont respond to HP making mods like LT or LS series GM motors due. You guys win the the displacment catagory hands down. However, 4.6's are a boost freindly motor up to around 400 rwhp. Fairly low compression ratio with these engines (unless you do a PI swap, then it gives a little bumb).

But, the aftermarket is huge and you can really build one hell of a car. Same with GM, so you cant go wrong either way.



My car has had zero actual breakdowns so far. I have had to replace the battery, thats it. Just general tune ups aside from that. I have owned it from 92k and just rolled over 128k tonight, and beat the poop out of it. Origional clutch to my knowlege also.

DEFINATLY invest in a gear swap. The fun factor is great... and if you do the PI swap down the road it will really help keep you in the powerband. 3.73's, 3.90's, 4.10's, all great choices.

As far as handling, I think the Mustang is a little more nuteral and a little more forgiving, stock for stock. There is a large suspension aftermarket, so it just comes down to how deep your pockets are.

I have knocked down 25 MPG pre and post gear swap. All highway of course, lol.

And these cars are easy breezy to work on (minus header installs). A spark plug change takes about 30mins.

Nothing at all in the engine bay in tucked into anything, there is definatly enough room to shove a big turbo or blower between the engine and the radiator. Very backyard mechanic freindly.


Mainly dealers will be asking 8-9k for these cars. Around where im at (South Carolina) most private sellers will ask $4-7k depending on mileage, condition and so on. Just remember you are stepping back performance wise by getting a 96-98 untill you either throw some forced induction at it, or complete the headswap... which fortunatly if you do just the PI swap (no ported heads by a company) it can be done VERY reasonably.
 
#14
Death Metal T/A said:
Any reference I make will be to a 96-98 GT with a 5 speed transmission.

First, I've read in several places that early 4.6's run high 14's- low 15's bone stock. Is this true? The thing that throws up a red flag is that many people claim to run low 13's nearly stock with only a few bolt ons. My car is probably in the mid to high 13's and I'm putting 260+ to the wheels. A lot of people say that a stock GT only puts 225 or so the the rear wheels. I know that Mustangs weigh a lot less than F-bodies, but what am I missing here? I'd imagine that these people all had to have at least had 4.10's swapped in? What information is incorrect here?
Click to expand...

14's-15's sound about right, my car is a stock 02 GT, and it runs 14.5 @ 95mph.

no the 96-98 does not put down 225 at the rear wheels...that's the base horsepower rating measured from the crank. take off 14% from 225 and you'll get what you're putting out at the rear wheels.

Second (preferably from someone who either ons or has owned an F-body and a Mustang)- How does a Mustang handle in comparison to an F-body? I love the way my car handles. I want something that can take turns at a similar speed and hugs the road just as well as my car does.
Click to expand...

you mean how does an SN-95 bodystyle handle compared to a Fox body? pretty close to the same if I recall correctly. My 97 cobra had a pretty good suspension on it, I had no complaints with it. I loved it's ability to take a decent curve at 80 - 100 mph.

Third- Fuel economy: What kind of gas mileage do you guys get? I'd imagine that I'd want to swap to 4.10's ASAP, so what kind of gas mileage do you 5 speed guys with 4.10's pull on average if you drive sensibly? Also, my car calls for premium. Is it the same for a 4.6, or do you guys get to run a lower octane? (in which case I envy you)
Click to expand...

my cobra got about 260 - 280 in the city, and 415 on the highway with stock 3.27's in. 4.10's...you can take about 10-12% off of that for highway driving, and about 5% off for city.

Fourth- How reliable are Mustangs? My car was freakin' fantastic up until it hit 100k miles. My clutch went, my thermostat went, my opti and waterpump needed to be replaced, I had to replace hoses in my radiator, now one of my pulleys is obnoxiously loud for some odd reason, my heat is gone, my A/C is gone and I've had to replace my power window motor. I know a lot of this is maintenance, but come on. All of that at only 100k miles is ridiculous. Will I have to deal with the same problems if I go 'Stang? Or are they more reliable?
Click to expand...

I have to honestly say after owning 3 of them, they are the most reliable car Ford has ever built. I had no problems with my 97 cobra I had in 2006, my current mustang a 2002 mustang gt, has never been to the shop for anything more than a vacuum leak and an alignment. other than that, it's all been aftermarket stuff being put on. I love my car, it runs good and strong...it just hit 80,000 miles, I've had it since it has 60,661 on the clock, and I am the 2nd owner of the car. like any car there are some things that will just plain out piss you off about it, and there are some things you're gonna love about it.

Fifth- How much easier is it to work under the hood of a 4.6 than an LT1? I used to talk to someone who sold his LT1 for a 4.6. He said he was able to do a H/C/I swap on his 4.6 in the parking lot of his apartment complex, because they're so much easier to work on. I have a lift in my garage and I can't even imagine having to do the headers on my car.
Click to expand...

some things are easier some things will be harder. you think swapping headers on your car is hard, just wait until you get to do them on a mustang....you have to drop the k-member on 99-04...not sure about fox's or 94-98's.
 
#16
mixedbreed02gt said:
oh btw...get a pair of PI Heads and send them up to Total Engine Airflow

http://www.totalengineairflow.com/

and have them ported and polished...can gain you up to 90 hp...according to a book called

How To Build 4.6 Horsepower on the Dyno, by Richard Holdener.

but TEA is among the best in the country.
Click to expand...


not true

NA, you might get 10-20hp. Ive done both a ported PI headswap, and a non ported PI headswap. The difference is not that much. NA PI headswap cars are putting down 300rwhp with the stock, untouched heads.
 
#17
Winters98GT said:
not true

NA, you might get 10-20hp. Ive done both a ported PI headswap, and a non ported PI headswap. The difference is not that much. NA PI headswap cars are putting down 300rwhp with the stock, untouched heads.
Click to expand...

how do you figure when the NON-PI engines are putting 225 at the crank? and PI Engines are putting 260 at the crank?

your math is way off.

here's a scan from the book I have. read the far right column top to bottom.

http://www.ponyshopper.com/heads.pdf
 
#18
we were talking about 2 different things. I thought you were saying 90hp from just porting a set of heads, not porting and doing a PI swap. :)

Mark
 
#20
Would a 94-95 be a better choice? I've thought about a 5.0, but I don't know too much about them. I guess a Fox body would be the best choice if I was just looking for performance, but the 94-98's look 100x better IMO. Does one motor (5.0 or 4.6) have any significant pros or cons in comparison to the other?
 
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