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Legit ?'s from a GM guy

  • Thread starter Thread starter Death Metal T/A
  • Start date Start date Apr 21, 2008
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AdRock

Member
Nov 13, 2003
521
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South Texas
Apr 22, 2008
#21
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #21
If I did it all over again I'd probably try to find a 94-95 GTS and start there. The 302 is so much cheaper to modify and make great power with. If you do that you get the body style you like and an engine that's cheaper to modify to get the same power.
 

CobraRed_96_GT

Active Member
May 20, 2006
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UCSD/La Jolla
Apr 22, 2008
#22
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #22
AdRock said:
If I did it all over again I'd probably try to find a 94-95 GTS and start there. The 302 is so much cheaper to modify and make great power with. If you do that you get the body style you like and an engine that's cheaper to modify to get the same power.
Click to expand...

+1, cheaper parts, even easier engine to work on. 96+ for boost, 94-95 for NA
 

BurningRubber

10 Year Member
Dec 6, 2004
1,865
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Apr 22, 2008
#23
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #23
Yes I would definatly get a 94/95 GT and build a stout little 5.0.

Less $ and more power for the money compared to building a N/A 4.6.
 
D

Death Metal T/A

New Member
Aug 4, 2004
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Apr 22, 2008
#24
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #24
CobraRed_96_GT said:
+1, cheaper parts, even easier engine to work on. 96+ for boost, 94-95 for NA
Click to expand...
What kind of boost can each motor handle, let's say from a supercharger? My neighbor has a low 12 second supercharged 95. Full weight too. I don't think he upgraded the internals, so I'm wondering what kind of boost he could be running.
 

scupking

Active Member
Sep 18, 2005
1,186
1
36
Enfield, CT
Apr 22, 2008
#25
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #25
AdRock said:
If I did it all over again I'd probably try to find a 94-95 GTS and start there. The 302 is so much cheaper to modify and make great power with. If you do that you get the body style you like and an engine that's cheaper to modify to get the same power.
Click to expand...

+1 I would go for 94-95 Cobra. I found a nice one by me for 12,000 with only 54k on it. The 94-95 cobra put out 240 at the crank but I think they where under rated. The 5.0s are very easy to up the HP to 300rwhp.
 

CobraRed_96_GT

Active Member
May 20, 2006
1,421
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UCSD/La Jolla
Apr 22, 2008
#26
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #26
Death Metal T/A said:
What kind of boost can each motor handle, let's say from a supercharger? My neighbor has a low 12 second supercharged 95. Full weight too. I don't think he upgraded the internals, so I'm wondering what kind of boost he could be running.
Click to expand...

it's not about being more internally strong. It's about tune-ability and efficiency under boost, and all the options available. 420rwhp is usually the recommended extended period of time limit for the connecting rods - not that the 5.0 is weaker, just it has push rods going through the block so the block would crack way before the iron 4.6 will.
4.6's a lovely boost fiend, nice power arch.
5.0's have a huge market for NA parts like heads - while 4.6's have not one single aftermarket head design, only ported stock castings.
 

billfisher

Active Member
Jul 17, 2005
1,296
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38
huntsville, AL
Apr 22, 2008
#27
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #27
my near stock motor runs low 13's. he he he he
 

COramprat

...I can take it. I think.
20+ Year Stangneter
Mar 2, 2003
8,474
1,463
223
Sea of Tranquility
Apr 22, 2008
#28
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #28
The only real problem I had with mine is a cracked upper intake (very common) at about 110,000 miles and a bad throwout bearing at 130K miles. I just rolled 190K on mine and I still romp on it a bit although my tranny is showing signs of the wear. The engine runs smooth as day one even with the cams.

Other than the two things I mentioned, with regular maintinance items, this has been a very good car.
 

98COBRA281

10 Year Member
Nov 24, 2007
1,348
30
59
Port St. Lucie, Florida
Apr 22, 2008
#29
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #29
COramprat said:
The only real problem I had with mine is a cracked upper intake (very common) at about 110,000 miles and a bad throwout bearing at 130K miles. I just rolled 190K on mine and I still romp on it a bit although my tranny is showing signs of the wear. The engine runs smooth as day one even with the cams.

Other than the two things I mentioned, with regular maintinance items, this has been a very good car.
Click to expand...

wow 190K, and u turn a 13.8, thats great, im almost at 102K
 
D

Death Metal T/A

New Member
Aug 4, 2004
15
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0
Apr 22, 2008
#30
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #30
This is a very tough call for me to make. My Lt1 pulls very hard. I can break the wheels loose at 20MPH if I'm in 1st. The problem is, it has 110k miles on it, plus it's nearly impossible to work on. Also, I think Mustangs blow my car away in the looks department. There isn't much I'm willing to do on my car myself since it's such a PITA, so that leads to astronomical fees for any performance or mechanical work, not to mention I won't get the satisfaction of being able to look back and say, "I built up everything on that car with my own two hands". With a Mustang, it doesn't sound like it will be as easy to run similar times in the 1/4 mile, but I would be able to say, "this car was built, not bought". I guess it would all balance out in the end. The extra cost in labor to have work done to my car would level out with the extra cost it would take to run the same times as an F-body with bigger displacement.

My problem is that I dream bigger than I can afford. In my mind, I already have a 'Stang with an all aluminum 5.4, full bolt ons, a full suspension and gobs of weight pulled out. In reality, I haven't even put a "for sale" sign on my current car. I also have to think about whether I want a 4.6 or a 5.0. I've never, in my life, met someone who owned a Mustang and didn't like it. However, I've met plenty of people who disliked their "rattle and squeek machine" of an F-body.
 

BurningRubber

10 Year Member
Dec 6, 2004
1,865
24
58
Apr 22, 2008
#31
  • Apr 22, 2008
  • #31
F-bodys arent bad cars.

They are fast, respond well to mods, plenty of parts.

The main reason I would not want to own one is due to them being a PITA to work on.

Aside from that, id have no problem buying one. If I did itd be a WS-6 Trans Am 6 speed... 2002 Limited Edition... awwww man secks on wheels right there.
 

mogs01gt

Founding Member
Jul 22, 2002
3,113
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119
Ohio
Apr 23, 2008
#32
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #32
Death Metal T/A said:
What kind of boost can each motor handle, let's say from a supercharger? My neighbor has a low 12 second supercharged 95. Full weight too. I don't think he upgraded the internals, so I'm wondering what kind of boost he could be running.
Click to expand...
The 5.0s wont handle much over 450 to the tires on the stock block. It will split down the valley. The Modular blocks will handle more boost then you can throw at it. The 5.0 cheap thing is a myth. Its not that much cheaper to get the 5.0 to put down 300+ to the wheels and it would still get worse fuel mileage. Besides, you would need to keep the rev's down or you could split the block.

If you are set are getting a sn95 94-98 body, get the Cobra. Dont bother with anything else.
 

scupking

Active Member
Sep 18, 2005
1,186
1
36
Enfield, CT
Apr 23, 2008
#33
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #33
mogs01gt said:
The 5.0s wont handle much over 450 to the tires on the stock block. It will split down the valley. The Modular blocks will handle more boost then you can throw at it. The 5.0 cheap thing is a myth. Its not that much cheaper to get the 5.0 to put down 300+ to the wheels and it would still get worse fuel mileage. Besides, you would need to keep the rev's down or you could split the block.

If you are set are getting a sn95 94-98 body, get the Cobra. Dont bother with anything else.
Click to expand...

+1 look for cobras (94-95 put out 240 and 96-98 put out 305HP).
 

Notchbck93

New Member
Dec 9, 2003
422
1
0
IL
Apr 23, 2008
#34
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #34
mogs01gt said:
The 5.0s wont handle much over 450 to the tires on the stock block. It will split down the valley. The Modular blocks will handle more boost then you can throw at it. The 5.0 cheap thing is a myth. Its not that much cheaper to get the 5.0 to put down 300+ to the wheels and it would still get worse fuel mileage. Besides, you would need to keep the rev's down or you could split the block.

If you are set are getting a sn95 94-98 body, get the Cobra. Dont bother with anything else.
Click to expand...

I've never seen someone talk so much about splitting the block.

I have several friends pushing the limits of 5L factory 100,000 mile blocks. 500 rwhp safely tuned. It seems that whenever you go to push out 525 or more, even girdled, the darn block cracks in half.

A stock 5L rotating assembly can handle 14 psi if properly tuned w/ heads cam intake blah blah and will get you over 500 rwhp.

If you want to be safe, keep it at 10 psi and range anywhere from 425-475 rwhp depending on your package and the dyno your using.

My buddies 02Gt however with 9 psi of kenne bell put down 365 to the rear tire.

My coupe tips in at 3220 without driver, full interior, AC, power everything. I ran a lousy 12.5 @ 109. something with a 1.771 60 ft spinning a 27" slick. I really felt the car had a high two to low three in it with a 26 slick and some traction (12.20's to 30's @ 110.

This was achieved with an old school 300hp edelbrock package and a terrible e cam and a weak 3.55 gear.

Even after I installed the blower I still see 23 mpg on the highway at 70 mph with the cruise on. However, I never went back to the track after installing the blower so I won't even try to guess what it would run. I did throw the car on Anderson's dyno in Clinton where it made 427.4 to the rear tire before running out of fuel on 24lb injectors and only one 255 liter pump. I would estimate an honest 430 on a safe tune with the 42lb squirters and extra 255 liter pump I later installed. A meth kit would probably put it up to four and a half rwhp being realistic on 8lbs of boost. I still have a small pulley if I wanted to shoot for 500 rwhp, but why?

I can haze ET streets at 60-80mph on the street. I certainly understand that it is not a 700 rwhp Terminator, but she runs strong for what I consider to be a relatively low investment. Did I fail to mention I am running the dreaded hypereutectic pistons and those so called weak forged rods?

You can bend the rods if you have a nitrous backfire, don't get me wrong on that one.
 

mogs01gt

Founding Member
Jul 22, 2002
3,113
30
119
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Apr 23, 2008
#35
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #35
Notchbck93 said:
I've never seen someone talk so much about splitting the block. I have several friends pushing the limits of 5L factory 100,000 mile blocks. 500 rwhp safely tuned. It seems that whenever you go to push out 525 or more, even girdled, the darn block cracks in half.
A stock 5L rotating assembly can handle 14 psi if properly tuned w/ heads cam intake blah blah and will get you over 500 rwhp.
If you want to be safe, keep it at 10 psi and range anywhere from 425-475 rwhp depending on your package and the dyno your using.
My buddies 02Gt however with 9 psi of kenne bell put down 365 to the rear tire.
My coupe tips in at 3220 without driver, full interior, AC, power everything. I ran a lousy 12.5 @ 109. something with a 1.771 60 ft spinning a 27" slick. I really felt the car had a high two to low three in it with a 26 slick and some traction (12.20's to 30's @ 110.
This was achieved with an old school 300hp edelbrock package and a terrible e cam and a weak 3.55 gear.
Even after I installed the blower I still see 23 mpg on the highway at 70 mph with the cruise on. However, I never went back to the track after installing the blower so I won't even try to guess what it would run. I did throw the car on Anderson's dyno in Clinton where it made 427.4 to the rear tire before running out of fuel on 24lb injectors and only one 255 liter pump. I would estimate an honest 430 on a safe tune with the 42lb squirters and extra 255 liter pump I later installed. A meth kit would probably put it up to four and a half rwhp being realistic on 8lbs of boost. I still have a small pulley if I wanted to shoot for 500 rwhp, but why?
I can haze ET streets at 60-80mph on the street. I certainly understand that it is not a 700 rwhp Terminator, but she runs strong for what I consider to be a relatively low investment. Did I fail to mention I am running the dreaded hypereutectic pistons and those so called weak forged rods?
You can bend the rods if you have a nitrous backfire, don't get me wrong on that one.
Click to expand...
You can spew internet BS all you want. I have seen in person those POS blocks snap in two with just under 500 at the engine. Dont even bring Mexican blocks either, those arent easy to come by and they still cant handle the amount of power a modular block car.Also, 360rwhp on a Kenne Bell at 9psi is weak. Sounds like there are more issues at hand.
 

BurningRubber

10 Year Member
Dec 6, 2004
1,865
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58
Apr 23, 2008
#36
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #36
Come on guys, each motor is different.

Some will handle 500 at the wheels for the life of the vehicle, some wont even support it for a thousand miles. Alot of factors go into how much it will stand up to aside from it just being a 5.0.

Just like some 4.6's puke a rod or more under 400 rwhp, some withstand 450 the length of ownership.

Agreed the 4.6 block is FAR superior to the 5.0, but each motor definatly has their wink links.
 

Notchbck93

New Member
Dec 9, 2003
422
1
0
IL
Apr 23, 2008
#37
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #37
mogs01gt said:
You can spew internet BS all you want. I have seen in person those POS blocks snap in two with just under 500 at the engine. Dont even bring Mexican blocks either, those arent easy to come by and they still cant handle the amount of power a modular block car.Also, 360rwhp on a Kenne Bell at 9psi is weak. Sounds like there are more issues at hand.
Click to expand...

hmm. 10+ years as a member of Stallion Racing as Research and Developmental specialist helps to see where things hold to certain limits as long as the customer signs the waiver to hold me harmless

I guess you need to define the starting point to define weak. 230 ish to the rear tire stock 5 speed and adding 9 lbs of KB isn't exactly weak on an otherwise bone stock car. Remember this is the 2v we speak of, not a 3 or 4V. I've seen more centrifugal blower hit 375 plus and even as much as low 500s with head work, cams etc. but it takes longer to build up boost, unlike having 9psi at 2500 rpm w/ the KB

The powdered metal rods are the weak link in the mods. I do know of a handful of boys roaming the streets on 500rwhp on stock bottom-end 2v blocks. It can be done. It depends on how many times you plan to use all of that boost.

Seeing that I can't give away customer info due to being sued, there are plenty of guys right on here making over 500 rwhp 5L blocks

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=648210&highlight=14psi

groverdill

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=603191&highlight=14psi

You have to remember that not all dyno numbers are created equal; air temp, baro, elevation an so forth all factor in and this is before we even begin to look at the platform.

I figured one guy always comes on and blows a whistle... You get the cookie Today, my friend, you're the lucky guy!
 
D

Death Metal T/A

New Member
Aug 4, 2004
15
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0
Apr 23, 2008
#38
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #38
mogs01gt said:
If you are set are getting a sn95 94-98 body, get the Cobra. Dont bother with anything else.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of the Cobra's nose. Not to mention, if I do get a Mustang, I plan on pulling out a lot of stuff. If I'm going to make a car look like it was left unlocked overnight in East New York, I'd prefer it was a typical run of the mill, dime a dozen car. Not a special edition or special model
 
B

blubullett

Member
Jun 22, 2006
535
6
18
Modesto, CA
Apr 23, 2008
#39
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #39
Get a cobra. If you dont you will wish you did. The 32v heads are a lot more boost friendly than a gt. Look at prochargers rating for a gt, then a cobra. Youll change your mind.
 

CobraRed_96_GT

Active Member
May 20, 2006
1,421
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39
UCSD/La Jolla
Apr 23, 2008
#40
  • Apr 23, 2008
  • #40
Notchbck93 said:
groverdill

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=603191&highlight=14psi
Click to expand...

I know GroverDill locally, he's a SCS guy. I believe he said right after he dyno'd with the new set-up "moment of silence for the blocks soon death...."

Then the next year he bought a new block (unless he bought it for something else)
 
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