Master Cylinder for 4-Wheels Discs

Pbum5 · Apr 18, 2005

Hey All,
I am wondering what Brake Master Cylinder would work best for my set-up? I will be swapping to Manual 4- wheel disc setup from my 4- Manual drums. I have a 1967.
In the front I am going with 68/69 Mustang discs w/upgrades (Semi-Metallic pads and slotted rotors). In the back I will be using SSBC rear disc set-up. What MC would work best and be a direct bolt in? I am guessing that The Wildwood adjustable proportioning valve is the way to go for a prop valve? Any tips or suggestions for this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Rollinns · Apr 19, 2005

I'm interested in this too, as I will be doing the same only with crown vic rear discs instead. Some people are using a 98 Ranger MC with a 1 1/16 bore. I like the idea of having the clear reservoir on top so I don't have to remove the cap to check the fluid. Southern Rods has a new 1" bore MC for $50 that I'm considering but it is cast iron with the stamped steel cover.

The adjustable prop. is the way to go for the rear, don't forget the 2lb. residual valves.

I just checked and Rangers used 1 1/16 bore from 1995 to at least 2000 but the part number changed in 98.

skywalker · Apr 19, 2005

I use a wilwood aluminum master cylinder for mine.

andrewVA · Apr 19, 2005

You can also use an 84-86 SVO MC. Thats what I have to put in, but I haven't gotten to that stage of the project yet.

Pbum5 · Apr 19, 2005

Rollinns said:
I'm interested in this too, as I will be doing the same only with crown vic rear discs instead. Some people are using a 98 Ranger MC with a 1 1/16 bore. I like the idea of having the clear reservoir on top so I don't have to remove the cap to check the fluid. Southern Rods has a new 1" bore MC for $50 that I'm considering but it is cast iron with the stamped steel cover.

The adjustable prop. is the way to go for the rear, don't forget the 2lb. residual valves.

I just checked and Rangers used 1 1/16 bore from 1995 to at least 2000 but the part number changed in 98.[/QUO

Are all the MC's you mention a direct bolt up to a 67 Stang?

Pbum5 · Apr 19, 2005

skywalker said:
I use a wilwood aluminum master cylinder for mine.

Are you also using residual valves with your 4 disc setup?

BobV · Apr 19, 2005

I'm using the 84-86 Mustang SVO master. Seems to work very well with my Wilwood/Versailles combination. I had previously used the 70's Ford 3/4T truck master cylinder (HUGE 1-1/4" bore), but switched to the SVO as it uses a slightly smaller 1-1/8" bore and is made from aluminum. I think I paid <$30.

68rustang · Apr 19, 2005

Where do the residual valves go and what is their purpose?

Pbum5 · Apr 19, 2005

BobV said:
I'm using the 84-86 Mustang SVO master. Seems to work very well with my Wilwood/Versailles combination. I had previously used the 70's Ford 3/4T truck master cylinder (HUGE 1-1/4" bore), but switched to the SVO as it uses a slightly smaller 1-1/8" bore and is made from aluminum. I think I paid <$30.

Hey Bob,
Was that SVO MC a direct bolt in?
Did you buy it at a local parts store?

Is this the part?

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=BEN&mfrpartnumber=R11897&parttype=230&ptset=A

BobV · Apr 19, 2005

Yep, that's it. I remember the "1897" part number. That part number is for both the aluminum & cast iron version - same part #, just the iron one was used on Lincolns. I had the local NAPA warehouse check their stock - they had 7 on hand - 2 were aluminum, and 5 were iron...

It bolts right up. I used the original 65 pushrod.
You DO need to fabricate the hard lines (no surprise there), as this M/C has outlets on the engine side. There was also a brass reducer fitting needed. I just bought a couple lengths of pre-flared tubing & bent to shape.
The front bowl connects to the Wilwood APV, then to the rear brakes, while the rear bowl connects to the original 65 distribution block, with the port formerly used by the rear line capped off.

Pbum5 · Apr 19, 2005

BobV said:
Yep, that's it. I remember the "1897" part number. That part number is for both the aluminum & cast iron version - same part #, just the iron one was used on Lincolns. I had the local NAPA warehouse check their stock - they had 7 on hand - 2 were aluminum, and 5 were iron...

It bolts right up. I used the original 65 pushrod.
You DO need to fabricate the hard lines (no surprise there), as this M/C has outlets on the engine side. There was also a brass reducer fitting needed. I just bought a couple lengths of pre-flared tubing & bent to shape.
The front bowl connects to the Wilwood APV, then to the rear brakes, while the rear bowl connects to the original 65 distribution block, with the port formerly used by the rear line capped off.

That’s a clean engine compartment!!
When you get a chance can you take close up of the MC and how you plumed it. I just want to have a reference when I start on mine. I am assuming that the Aluminum MC is the way to go and not the iron one? Are you using a residual valve? Looks like you have a manual brake setup. So will I.

tomstir · Apr 20, 2005

I think that part number 1897 is for power brakes....It doesn't look like Bobv has power brakes and Pbum5 is looking for manual...I am going to do the same 4wheel discs (manual) and there is a choice between 1 1/8 and 21mm bore....does anyone know which would be better for 4wheel manual discs..or would there not be any difference?

I just looked at another site and they give 1897 as power and then another choice as 1897..but does not say power or not...now I'm even more confused....Bobv..how is the pedal feel? If the 1 1/8 felt better than the 1 1/4 would that mean the 21mm would be better yet?
Comments/opinions

thanks

Pbum5 · Apr 20, 2005

Rollinns said:
I'm interested in this too, as I will be doing the same only with crown vic rear discs instead. Some people are using a 98 Ranger MC with a 1 1/16 bore. I like the idea of having the clear reservoir on top so I don't have to remove the cap to check the fluid. Southern Rods has a new 1" bore MC for $50 that I'm considering but it is cast iron with the stamped steel cover.

The adjustable prop. is the way to go for the rear, don't forget the 2lb. residual valves.

I just checked and Rangers used 1 1/16 bore from 1995 to at least 2000 but the part number changed in 98.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the residual valve is only necessary if you MC is lower than your brakes.

corpse · Apr 20, 2005

With my shorty headers, I don't have room for engine-side mounted brake lines.. So I'm thinking that the best bet will be to have my current master cylinder, the stock one, simply bored to the same 1 1/8" spec as the svo? Plus, it will simply be cheaper, but having 4 wilwood 4-piston calipers, I want to make sure it's done right the first time So is it ONLY the difference of bore size that makes these mc's different?

skywalker · Apr 21, 2005

Pbum5 said:
Are you also using residual valves with your 4 disc setup?

no.

samwe · Apr 21, 2005

I am using one from a Windstar. '96 I think?
The only modification was to accomdate the outlets being on the opposite side of the MC.

Pbum5 · Apr 21, 2005

thanks for the input guys.

How about telling us if that SVO M/C will work form NON-power brakes?

my parts will be in soon and I need to know if that MC will work without a power booster.

BobV · Apr 21, 2005

The master cylinder has no idea whether a booster or your brake pedal are pushing against it. In other words, it works JUST FINE. The only real difference between a manual & P/B master cylinder is that the manual normally has a pushrod included, and some models have a different depth on the plunger hole.

Bore size has to be a compromise. The smaller the bore, the less pedal effort will be required - HOWEVER - that equates to more travel, which can make the pedal seem spongy. Disc brakes require more fluid to actuate than drums, due to the large piston size. You can check google - there's a formula for calculating bore size and pressure required - you'll need to know pedal ratios, caliper sizes and all that jazz...

But in general most people prefer 1" to 1-1/8" piston size with 4WDB. The 21mm would be on the small side, unless you're running small bore calipers. Go too small, the pedal will be softer, go too large, and your leg won't generate enough pressure to use all the brake you have available. If you can't "lock the brakes" with a hard stomp, you're using too large of a bore. With the old 1.25" bore (huge!) MC, my 120lb wife was still able to drive the car just fine. I/we actually prefer the stiffer pedal - you really get a feel for how the car is stopping - the harder you push, the closer your face gets to the windshield!

Pbum5 · Apr 21, 2005

BobV said:
The master cylinder has no idea whether a booster or your brake pedal are pushing against it. In other words, it works JUST FINE. The only real difference between a manual & P/B master cylinder is that the manual normally has a pushrod included, and some models have a different depth on the plunger hole.

Bore size has to be a compromise. The smaller the bore, the less pedal effort will be required - HOWEVER - that equates to more travel, which can make the pedal seem spongy. Disc brakes require more fluid to actuate than drums, due to the large piston size. You can check google - there's a formula for calculating bore size and pressure required - you'll need to know pedal ratios, caliper sizes and all that jazz...

But in general most people prefer 1" to 1-1/8" piston size with 4WDB. The 21mm would be on the small side, unless you're running small bore calipers. Go too small, the pedal will be softer, go too large, and your leg won't generate enough pressure to use all the brake you have available. If you can't "lock the brakes" with a hard stomp, you're using too large of a bore. With the old 1.25" bore (huge!) MC, my 120lb wife was still able to drive the car just fine. I/we actually prefer the stiffer pedal - you really get a feel for how the car is stopping - the harder you push, the closer your face gets to the windshield!

That’s what I needed to know. Thanks for the explanation.
Do you have any close-up pics of your MC and prop valve. I just want a visual reference when I do mine.

Thanks.

BobV · Apr 21, 2005

Only shot I have is the OLD master cylinder. Same concept though...

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