N/A vs Blown

Jackie Chan · Feb 9, 2006

droptopponynj said:
Most I've ever seen was Ken B from Mod Depot and his was 360RWHP with everything taken to the limit. High compression, wild cams, extreme head porting, P51 intake I think also. And was not a streetable set up. He ditched that motor for a 4V NA. He is selling that shortblock if anyone wants a head start on their NA cruiser.

actually kenb's motor wasnt that extreme. go reread his posts about it. iron block, cast crank and he went to fox lakes other intakes. i wouldnt say it wasnt streetable, but pretty close to as much as you could possibly get out of a 4.6.

If his motor was totally radical like you describe, it would have had more displacement and even more wicked cams and a high rpm intake or probably carbed...

billfisher · Feb 9, 2006

cubes dude.... cubes n/a

DropTopPony · Feb 9, 2006

Jackie Chan said:
actually kenb's motor wasnt that extreme. go reread his posts about it. iron block, cast crank and he went to fox lakes other intakes. i wouldnt say it wasnt streetable, but pretty close to as much as you could possibly get out of a 4.6.

If his motor was totally radical like you describe, it would have had more displacement and even more wicked cams and a high rpm intake or probably carbed...

your right he could have went alittle further then he was, but not much. I'm pretty sure his goal with that set up was to see what he could get out of the stock displacement 281 cubes. And when i say streetable i mean being able to pull into a gas station and using on road fuel (93octane) and his compression ratio was over 12 to 1 so thats wasn't happening.

01Steeda · Feb 9, 2006

With 10-1 CR you should easily make over 320RWHP...probably around 330

this is the route I am headed, I should have some dyno numbers and trck numbers soon. ran into some minor problems while putting the engine in the car, nothing out of the ordinary. My car should start tomorrow and I should get it monday.

If done right an N/A car can be alot of fun, not to mention the shock of those LS1's when a N/A 4.6L walks there ass.

mrshl13 · Feb 10, 2006

for a guy to go to 300rwhp from a NPI car that would be sweet too?

Yes it is. It's like trading up.

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 10, 2006

the98stang said:
Yes I know a 100 shot won't guarentee a blown engine, but too many people use power adders with out properly tuning their cars. I can guarentee an engine with a supercharger will NOT last as long as a car that is naturally aspirated. The stock bottom end on our 4.6L's were NOT made for boost. If Ford wanted all GT's to have superchargers, they would have done that, right? Or maybe they would have made it an option. Sure the saleens and cobra's are S/C'ed, but the bottom ends were built for it. Boosted engines are just sitting on borrowed time. Even if the engine was built for boost, it will still wear down faster compared to a N/A engine. If you got the time/money to deal with an unrealiable car, then by all means, pump 20 psi in that b1tch!

You seem to be under the impression that a power adder = disaster, automatically. I'm not sure who came up with this theory, but the whole "blown engines wearing out faster than N/A engines" is one of the most uninformed comments I've ever heard. It doesn't matter how it's powered, the fact is, is that the harder you drive it and the more you abuse it, the shorter its life span. Blower, Turbo, Nitrous, N/A....whatever!

The Thunderbird SC's, Cougar XR7's, Grand Prix GTP's, Bonneville SSE, etc, etc didn't have forged internal components and I've seen plenty of them go over 200,000-miles. You don't need boost to kill an engine. I know of plenty of blown cars that have been running around for years now without issue and run as well now as they did stock. Sure if you go overboard, you're asking for trouble, but this goes for any applications.

You're mentality on the subject is kind of like looking into a one way mirror. You're only taking into consideration points from one side. There are many reasons Ford didn't factory install blowers on the 4.6L GT, but reliability was only a fraction of many reasons for not doing so. I'll guarantee that production cost, supply, the need to inflated sticker prices and probability of cutting into "Cobra" sales all took precedent over reliability on that one. BTW....Saleen Mustangs have the exact same bottom end as a stock GT. Right down to the crack cap powdered rods and hypereutectic pistons.

If you don't think the 4.6L bottom end wasn't built for boost or spray, what makes you think it would fair any better pushed within and inch of it's life in a N/A state. Or don't you think 330+rwhp on a radically built engine with a stock bottom end isn't eventually going to take it's toll either?

the98stang · Feb 10, 2006

Gearbanger 101 said:
If you don't think the 4.6L bottom end wasn't built for boost or spray, what makes you think it would fair any better pushed within and inch of it's life in a N/A state. Or don't you think 330+rwhp on a radically built engine with a stock bottom end isn't eventually going to take it's toll either?

Obviously a motor that has been modified in ANY way including N/A mods, supercharpers, nitrous, turbos. etc won't last as long as a bone stock engine. However, superchargers are probably the worst thing you can do to a car to put more stress on an engine. What will be worse on a car, cams, or a supercharger (assuming both cars are tuned properly). The supercharger will have a greater effect on the engine, of course. Even if an engine has a sh1t load of N/A mods done to it, air isn't being FORCED into the engine in large increments. When boost is forced into the cylinders, it's almost like the pistons recieve a huge "jolt". They go from a normal cycling rate, to a very fast rate because of the boost, giving you more HP. But naturally aspirated engines do not recieve that large force that moves them to much faster speeds in such a short amount of time. Therefore, there is less wear on N/A engines even if the car is modded to hell with new heads, cams, exhaust, and any other N/A mod you can think of. Do want you want, but my experience with boosted cars has taught me a lot. And as far as realiability goes, N/A cars are WAY more realiable

>

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 10, 2006

the98stang said:
What will be worse on a car, cams, or a supercharger (assuming both cars are tuned properly). The supercharger will have a greater effect on the engine, of course. Even if an engine has a sh1t load of N/A mods done to it, air isn't being FORCED into the engine in large increments. When boost is forced into the cylinders, it's almost like the pistons recieve a huge "jolt". They go from a normal cycling rate, to a very fast rate because of the boost, giving you more HP. But naturally aspirated engines do not recieve that large force that moves them to much faster speeds in such a short amount of time. Therefore, there is less wear on N/A engines even if the car is modded to hell with new heads, cams, exhaust, and any other N/A mod you can think of. Do want you want, but my experience with boosted cars has taught me a lot. And as far as realiability goes, N/A cars are WAY more realiable

>

Interesting mindset you've got......one sided, but interesting none the less.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to make with regards to a "normal cycling rate" as you call it? Yes, the engine will make power more quickly moving it into (and even extending) it's power band that much faster, but you're not changing the rod/stroke ratio, so the rotating assembly isn't spinning any faster with a blower engine, than it is with a N/A engine. It is true that you're introducing and expelling a larger volume of air per complete revolutionary cycle, which is where things can get out of control in a hurry with a blower car, but as you stated yourself....both these engines are tuned properly, are they not? In which case, you're not going to see any excessive timing, or lean fuel curve rates with the blower engine like you're insisting and as a result, you're not going to have a problem. Of course every engine has it's limits, but considering there are more and more blower owners challenging and beating the odds every day, your outlook on these limits seems speculation at best.

Not all that long ago it was nearly unheard of to run more than about 6psi and 320-350rwhp on a stock 4.6L bottom end, for fear of disaster. Now a days, with improved blower efficiently, aftercooling and a wider variety of tuning parameters, your average Stang owner is running 8-10psi and most are seeing 400-450rwhp without ill effects. Don't even get me started on the newest crop of 3V engines. They've got the same internal components that the early 2V's do and I don't even think you can buy a blower kit for them that makes less than 420rwhp.

If there's going to be a reliability issue with a car running a power adder, then 9/10 times it's going to be due to human error. Either an improperly tuned set up or constantly bagging on your ride because of the new found power under your right foot. A heavily modified N/A engine is subject to these same limitations. I don't care how much power it's making or how it's making it. If you're running with your foot in the oil pan all of the time, you're gonna shorten the life of your engine no matter what you drive. That aside....what exactly is it that you consider high maintenance about a blown car? Having to change the blower oil once and a while?

....and what's with the > thing? Since when did this because a Canada vs US thread? Because I'm not a citizen of the US, I don't know what I'm talking about? Many on this board might disagree with you! Or perhaps you mean to say that your comments in this thread have owned the Country itself, is that it. Or maybe you were just feeling petty because someone posted an opinion the differed from yours and attacking my geographical location on the map was the only thing you could think of on such short notice? Feel free to explain?

reddrgn01gt · Feb 10, 2006

98stang you have no idea what you are talking about based on what you said in post 47. This is why your experience has been bad with FI cars. It is all in the tune brother. I plan on running a 100 shot through the noszle system in the future and i am not planning on tossing a rod. You can't just slap **** together and think it is going to run good.

Edit: Canada is also the ****.

01Steeda · Feb 10, 2006

The only wear I see from a blower would be the pressure placed on the rings causing blow by and eventually ending the engines life early, other than that they would be the same. I just today saw a blown engine with this exact problem. broke it down and the rings were shot.

Outlaw97GT · Feb 10, 2006

Not that Im thinking about a blower, but i do have a question.
What is the maintenance on a s/c ?
How often do they need to be rebuilt?

Im planning on staying N/A, and to be honest I would be happy with 300RWHP. My car will probably never see the track and Im not out to have the fastest mustang on stang-net so I think 300 is good for me.

I just want a good looking, mean sounding, fairly fast car. Which is in the works now.

the98stang · Feb 11, 2006

Gearbanger 101 I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to make with regards to a "normal cycling rate" as you call it? ....and what's with the :owned: > :canada: thing? :scratch: Since when did this because a Canada vs US thread? [/QUOTE said:
I was referring to the state in which the cylinders recieve the normal amount of air they do coming from the factory, versus more air being pumped in with a S/C.

I just noticed you were from Canda, and decided to make a smart ass comment. And I can see it got you a little butt hurt . But I'll drop it...

I don't see how my opinions are one sided, as every point I make is backed up. I may not like superchargers, but that's because I know what they do to engines. You may think S/C'ed engines are God, but every one has their own opinion. Maybe I should start calling YOU one sided because you SUPPORT and encourage S/C'ed engine unlike me....

the98stang · Feb 11, 2006

reddrgn01gt said:
98stang you have no idea what you are talking about based on what you said in post 47. This is why your experience has been bad with FI cars. It is all in the tune brother. I plan on running a 100 shot through the noszle system in the future and i am not planning on tossing a rod. You can't just slap **** together and think it is going to run good.

Edit: Canada is also the ****.

Too bad BOTH turbo'ed cars I had were straight from the factory. I just fixed them when the engines had problems. Since when did I state "you can slap something together and think it is going to run good" ? I believe in one of the previous posts I explained that a lot of guys supercharging their cars were ruining their engines because they did not have them properly tuned. A 100 shot of nitrous will be safe if you have your car properly tuned and use the safeguards so your not spraying at 1000 rpms. But that does not mean the nitrous isn't wearing your engine down faster versus if it was N/a. Personally, I would rather spray then supercharge an engine because spraying is not constant rather than a supercharger that is constantly pooring boost into the cylinders. Don't assume I'm an idiot because I have just a few F'ing posts on this forum.....

stangjunkie · Feb 14, 2006

ya, know i would love to see someone stuff a 5.4 into a stang.... truck motor has tons of torque

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 14, 2006

stangjunkie said:
ya, know i would love to see someone stuff a 5.4 into a stang.... truck motor has tons of torque

You must not hang out in the Modular Section very often, billfisher has already done it and you can usually never get him to shut up about it.

hognutz · Feb 14, 2006

the98stang said:
Too bad BOTH turbo'ed cars I had were straight from the factory. I just fixed them when the engines had problems. Since when did I state "you can slap something together and think it is going to run good" ? I believe in one of the previous posts I explained that a lot of guys supercharging their cars were ruining their engines because they did not have them properly tuned. A 100 shot of nitrous will be safe if you have your car properly tuned and use the safeguards so your not spraying at 1000 rpms. But that does not mean the nitrous isn't wearing your engine down faster versus if it was N/a. Personally, I would rather spray then supercharge an engine because spraying is not constant rather than a supercharger that is constantly pooring boost into the cylinders. Don't assume I'm an idiot because I have just a few F'ing posts on this forum.....

your logic does not really makes sense to me. Spray or boost can be deadly to stock engine components if your not smart. I am not calling you an idiot or anything but Boost by itself is not harmful. detonation is harmful that comes from improper tune. Over reving is harmful that comes from improper driver. Operator error and a bad tune is death to a boosted engine or an engine on spray.

they both have downsides and upsides. A stock engine is not forged and not as strong so it will not stand up to abuse so you just have to safegaurd better. It is the same for spray though. you can run safty switchs with spray and idoit proof it a bit but you run gauges with boost and if you watch them and be smart your car won't self destruct.

depending on what NOS kit you are running you can have bad things go wrong. If you are smart you can run either for many miles on a stock engine. Make a mistake and you can garbage that engine with either of them.

02LaserRed2V · Feb 14, 2006

11 sec blown car is much more streetable than a 11 sec N/A car.

the98stang said:
And as far as realiability goes, N/A cars are WAY more realiable

Wrong.

Hondas are more reliable. If reliability is such an issue for you, go trade your stang for one.

the98stang · Feb 15, 2006

02LaserRed2V said:
11 sec blown car is much more streetable than a 11 sec N/A car.

Wrong.

Hondas are more reliable. If reliability is such an issue for you, go trade your stang for one.

I think it's funny you say that 11 sec blown cars are "much more streetable" than a 11 sec N/A car, when you state no proof. I don't think there is a 11 sec 4.6 N/A on these boards anyway...

Of course Honda's are more reliable, they have four cylinder engines. Which means there is less shi1t to deal with.

Please explain your definition of "more streetable"

the98stang · Feb 15, 2006

hognutz said:
1. Spray or boost can be deadly to stock engine components if your not smart.

2.Boost by itself is not harmful.

3.detonation is harmful that comes from improper tune. Over reving is harmful that comes from improper driver. Operator error and a bad tune is death to a boosted engine or an engine on spray.

1. this is true...owner the owner can control/***** up the engine
2. Boost causes the pistons to move faster in the cylinders. The more the pistons rotate, the more wear on the cylinder. Just like rubbing two bricks of metal together (of course that is just a general example).
3. I also agree

reddrgn01gt · Feb 15, 2006

the98stang said:
I think it's funny you say that 11 sec blown cars are "much more streetable" than a 11 sec N/A car, when you state no proof. I don't think there is a 11 sec 4.6 N/A on these boards anyway...

Of course Honda's are more reliable, they have four cylinder engines. Which means there is less shi1t to deal with.

Please explain your definition of "more streetable"

An 11 second NA car will be making its power mostly in the upper rpms. It will probably have radical cams in it which are not the best for daily drivers for obvious reasons. This also leads to routine valvetrain maintenance. With forced induction you will not have to go with the extreme internal engine mods. Do you think the guys like ken over at modular depot were driving their cars around as daily drivers making 11 and 10 sec passes? Now take a look at Jimfitz's 10 sec daily driver. His KB blown car makes power and torque at any rpm also.

What i was referring to in your earlier post about you not knowing what you are talking about was your explanation of the extra strain put on the engine due to FI making the engine cycle faster. Superchargers and turbos work by stuffing more air into the cylinders not by blowing the rotating assembly around faster. I by no means claim to be an expert in engine building and if that is how forced induction works (by making the pistons move faster) please somebody clue me in. We do not have chevy smallblocks (displacement) in our cars. We can't just throw in a streetable H/C package and make big numbers.

N/A vs Blown

N/A or Blown

N/A - who needs a blower whne you got a hummer

Blown - the only way to ride

I didn't read this.

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