Need some basic direction: c4 vs. T5

Stang66swt · Jan 15, 2009

My '65 vert has a manual 3-speed and I've seen a lot on c4 and T5 stuff. I want to keep the car a stick. I like the idea of an overdrive for longer trips but I get the feeling a C4 might be an easier, less involved, cheaper, and strong option. I'm just getting started so I'm turning to y'all for my first step.

Any info, opinions, facts, criticism will help.

57fairlane · Jan 15, 2009

I would strongly recommend the t5 . . . I took my c4 out when I decided I wanted more of a cruiser and I actually wanted to keep up with traffic on the highway.

Nosboss · Jan 15, 2009

57fairlane said:
I would strongly recommend the t5 . . . I took my c4 out when I decided I wanted more of a cruiser and I actually wanted to keep up with traffic on the highway.

I agree. I am in the process of doing the T5 swap right now. You will love the overdrive once you have it.

mrmustangman357 · Jan 15, 2009

you can get away with alot of rear gear on the street with that t5's overdrive. the c4 is good to just pop in drive and go, or if you have a hardcore street/strip car. if its a street driver, t5 all the way. only downside is the low torque handling in stock form

rbohm · Jan 15, 2009

it depends on what rear gear you want to use. if you go with something in the 2.80-3.25 range, then i say go with the C4, for more rear gear than that you want the T5.

67rcks · Jan 16, 2009

If you have 3 speed stick, going to c4 does not make much sense unless you want autoomatic for some reason. Going to t5 will give you smoother acceleration because t5's 1st gear is numerically higher than 3-sp's 1st. Rear gearing 1:3.00 or less, combined with somewhat sporty camshaft (stock too), will cause you won't have enough rpm/torque for 5th until around 90-100 mph

Stang66swt · Jan 16, 2009

isn't there a 4-speed manual tranny?

rhyno9 · Jan 16, 2009

Stang66swt said:
isn't there a 4-speed manual tranny?

there are a couple.

4 speed toploader (more common in later stangs)
4 speed t-10 (more common in early stangs 65ish)
4 speed srod (late 70's overdrive piece o' crap)

Stang66swt · Jan 16, 2009

rhyno9 said:
there are a couple.

4 speed toploader (more common in later stangs)
4 speed t-10 (more common in early stangs 65ish)
4 speed srod (late 70's overdrive piece o' crap)

Ok, then these are what I should be asking about compared to the T5. No doubt the T5 is a solid replacement and everyone likes it but does it cost more and involve more to do the T5 over a 4 speed toploader

rhyno9 · Jan 16, 2009

any of the transmissions I mentioned will be easier than a t5.

The t5 swap requires some custom parts which will either $ or fabricate.

The 4 speeds will bolt up and use the existing linkage. I don't have experience with 3 speeds so I can't say for sure that the driveshaft will bolt up.

To swap a t5 you either need an adapter plate (early linkage and bell) or late model bell clutch and cable. You will need a crossmember with either setup.

I went from a t10 to a t5 and needed to have my driveshaft shortened. I used a late model bellhousing, clutch and cable. I fabbed the shifter, cable quadrant and crossmember myself.

as for the money

I have about $1200 into my swap.
$450 tranny and hurst shifter
$200 king cobra clutch(new)
$140 billet flywheel(new)
$25 bellhousing
$10 blockplate
$30 adjustable clutch cable(new)
$192 shorten driveshaft and new hd u-joints

The steel I used was scrap so I have no idea what that cost and many of these parts were purchased 5+ years ago.

Smallblock 4 speed toploaders on ebay go from $500 to $1100 so I am not sure the cost differential is that dramatic. It just depends at how patience you are at sourcing parts.

65ShelbyClone · Jan 16, 2009

A good Toploader alone will very likely cost more than a good T5 and it has no overdrive. Your cruising rpm with the current Toploader 3 speed will be the exact same as with a Toploader 4 speed. The only difference will be another gear in the middle, which does help drivability. A C4 will be the same way. As an example, I have a Toploader 4 with 3.50 gears and 26" tires and my cruise rpm at 60mph is around 3000. I plan on getting either a WC T5 or Tremec 3550(used) in the future.

Edster · Jan 17, 2009

The toploader will take almost anything you can throw at it. It is as bulletproof as any factory item gets. You will spend way more on a 5spd that can handle high levels of torque. A c-4 can be built to handle gobs of torque. Gear vendors makes an overdrive that bolts on, but you will have to shorten your drive shaft and the unit cost$$$$.

65ShelbyClone · Jan 17, 2009

If the car in question is the '65 convertible Stang66swt mentioned in the Talk forum, then it really doesn't need Toploader strength unless it's destined to be a drag car. Also, since it is a convertible, you would do well to not make any irreversible modifications to it.

57fairlane · Jan 18, 2009

65ShelbyClone said:
A good Toploader alone will very likely cost more than a good T5 and it has no overdrive.

no kidding . . .

I am looking for a toploader to face-plate for a race car and junk cores are $400+

t5s (especially the 4 cylinder ones) are a dime a dozen and you can buy a working one for $400.

I had $800-900 in my swap but I built almost everything myself, worked at a mustang shop (discounted parts) and my falcon driveshaft didn't need to be shortened.

Stang66swt · Jan 19, 2009

65ShelbyClone said:
If the car in question is the '65 convertible Stang66swt mentioned in the Talk forum, then it really doesn't need Toploader strength unless it's destined to be a drag car. Also, since it is a convertible, you would do well to not make any irreversible modifications to it.

So the T5 wouldn't really be a perminent mod?

rhyno9 · Jan 19, 2009

Stang66swt said:
So the T5 wouldn't really be a perminent mod?

Not if you use the manual bellcrank linkage and spacer plate. The only thing you might need to change would be drilling a hole for the clucth linkage in the firewall. I am not sure if the hole was pre drilled at the factory on auto cars. Either hydraulic or cable would require additional holes to be drilled in the firewall. There might be one cable setup (Ron Morris) that uses the original bellcrank hole but I can't remember.

On a driver quality car I think a manual tranny swap won't affect the car's value either way.

Stang66swt · Jan 19, 2009

rhyno9 said:
Not if you use the manual bellcrank linkage and spacer plate. The only thing you might need to change would be drilling a hole for the clucth linkage in the firewall. I am not sure if the hole was pre drilled at the factory on auto cars. Either hydraulic or cable would require additional holes to be drilled in the firewall. There might be one cable setup (Ron Morris) that uses the original bellcrank hole but I can't remember.

On a driver quality car I think a manual tranny swap won't affect the car's value either way.

Good info. I definately want to keep the car a manual tranny.

rhyno9 · Jan 19, 2009

Stang66swt said:
Good info. I definately want to keep the car a manual tranny.

I forgot you had a 3 speed. I kept thinking you had a c4 from the subject title.

One thing you would need to modify if using spacer plate and bellcrank is the bellhousing. You need to drill some holes in the bell to attach the spacer.

Driveshaft shortening seems be sporadic among conversions. My 67 had a t10 swapped into it at some point in time and it had a solid driveshaft with an 8 inch rear. When I put the drivetrain into my 68 using a 9 inch and t5 the driveshaft needed to be shortened. It could have been the rear or the tranny or both having caused this.

jcp123 · Jan 19, 2009

I'd have to go for the 5-speed, if for no other reason than because it's overdrive. I'm not one for modernizing these cars too much, bit I am an overdrive fan because of the flexibility it affords you in balancing driveability and mileage. I'm thinking about an AOD swap for my current C4.

65ShelbyClone · Jan 19, 2009

rhyno9 said:
I am not sure if the hole was pre drilled at the factory on auto cars. Either hydraulic or cable would require additional holes to be drilled in the firewall.

Doesn't really matter in this discussion, but my '68 was a factory C4 car and it had a knock-out in the firewall like an electrical box.

Need some basic direction: c4 vs. T5

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