O.T. What happened to US

Gud T.B. Blown · Apr 13, 2005

manufacturing leadership? i grew up in the sixties when the US led the world in steel, textile, electronic, and auto manufacturing. the Big 3 actually built all of their own manual transmissions. back in the 80's when horsepower started to rise GM had to license ZF technology to build a 5 speed transaxle because they didn't have any engineers that could. this is from the same company that built the muncie m-22 behind 450hp chevelles. ford decided to sell the toploader tooling and it's still being sold by Tremec, albiet slightly re-engineered as a 5 and 6 speed.
did we as a country sell our ecomic future for short term gain by sending our jobs to foreign countries for cheap labor like the textile industry, or was it honest competition and we lost. what about the steel and auto industries? japan is known for it's quality steel and autos, while we aren't anymore. did we just fall behind in technology or was it that not enough profits were invested in new products and technologies.
i know that in electronics japan just plain kicked our a$$ with better development of the product, after all they didn't invent the tv, cd, fax, vcr, etc... but they sure developed and marketed them better.

ForceFed70 · Apr 13, 2005

The cost of labour got too high...which brings up costs on it's own. But also brings up related costs like the cost of materials, services, etc.

Now everyone pays big bucks to an engineer. They send him overseas to design and setup a manufacturing process and then wish him a good day.

The Hopkinator · Apr 13, 2005

Foreign workforce will work longer for less, .Thats the problem now.
Japanese steel? The steel that they built the Mitsubishi " ZerO" planes that attacked Pearl Harbor were made from American steel, sold and donated to Japan in the mid to late 1930s.. We have the POTENTIAL to build bigger, better, more advanced EVERYTHING. We just want too much money to do it.So the jobs go elsewhere.

one2gamble · Apr 13, 2005

short answer

we cost to much to maintain

skywalker · Apr 13, 2005

I can answer this question with three simple words: "The Great Society." Raise overall cost of living by raising taxes on everyone at the top, thereby lowering their standard of living, then raise the lwoer end's standard of living by giving them the upper end's money. The upper end isn'thappy living like the lower end so they require more money and therefore take more money creating the vicious cycle of government confiscation and dependency that is socialism. That combined with a very wise policy of the government not subsidizing or taking over every business under the sun (a trait common under both socialism and fascism) creates high labor costs.

So to justify the high labor costs (and therefore high prices) we farm out out lower end labor to 3rd world countries and force everyone in this country to get a degree to get any job so that they can justify their salaries.

Quick solution? Tell everyone on welfare to piss off and convert from an income tax to some form of consumption tax (thereby eliminating corporate taxation which they just pass on to the consumer with higher prices) which means we all have more money, and competitive pressures force prices down and profits up.

Will it happen? Hell no.

Gud T.B. Blown · Apr 13, 2005

skywalker said:
I can answer this question with three simple words: "The Great Society." Raise overall cost of living by raising taxes on everyone at the top, thereby lowering their standard of living, then raise the lwoer end's standard of living by giving them the upper end's money. The upper end isn'thappy living like the lower end so they require more money and therefore take more money creating the vicious cycle of government confiscation and dependency that is socialism. That combined with a very wise policy of the government not subsidizing or taking over every business under the sun (a trait common under both socialism and fascism) creates high labor costs.

So to justify the high labor costs (and therefore high prices) we farm out out lower end labor to 3rd world countries and force everyone in this country to get a degree to get any job so that they can justify their salaries.

Quick solution? Tell everyone on welfare to piss off and convert from an income tax to some form of consumption tax (thereby eliminating corporate taxation which they just pass on to the consumer with higher prices) which means we all have more money, and competitive pressures force prices down and profits up.

Will it happen? Hell no.

how can you lower someones standard of living that is making $1 million a year or more? if you are inferring that the US is a socialist country you are dead wrong. if you want to see a true socialist country look at france or norway. one aspect of a true socialist country is a true re-distribution of wealth to all classes. in this country there has been wealth distribution but it has been mostly in the upper 1% of our population. reverse socialism i guess.
as for being a fascist state i'll have to agree with you on that.
i agree we need to take people off of welfare and put them to work but also at a living wage. i live in california and i don't see how people get by on minimum wage and it's these people that are going to be hurt the most by a consumption tax. everybody has to pay for food, clothing, gas, electricity, etc.... so a greater percentage of their income is going towards the necessities.
i'm not sure what government confiscations of businesses you are referring to other than maybe the S&L's but that was a because they were going under causing thousands of people their life savings and they did nothing wrong. if you are referring to government regulation i think as bad as it might seem it actually is for the better a lot of the time. look at enron, worldcom, the california energy crisis, etc.... maybe if the government would have been more vigilant millions of people wouldn't have lost their jobs and retirement accounts. just about every deregulated business in california has gotten worse with higher prices and worse customer service after deregulation. in theory deregulation should work but so far other than the airline industry (and most carriers are near bankruptcy) hasn't worked.
lastly, i agree with you wholeheartedly about getting rid of subsidization but those businesses are amongst the biggest campaign donors so i don't envision that happening anytime soon. FYI, the biggest recipient of farm subsidies is ArcherDanielsMidland, on of the largest corporations in the world.

BTW, hows the weather in 29 palms this time of year?

skywalker · Apr 13, 2005

pushrod power said:
how can you lower someones standard of living that is making $1 million a year or more? if you are inferring that the US is a socialist country you are dead wrong. if you want to see a true socialist country look at france or norway. one aspect of a true socialist country is a true re-distribution of wealth to all classes. in this country there has been wealth distribution but it has been mostly in the upper 1% of our population. reverse socialism i guess.
as for being a fascist state i'll have to agree with you on that.
i agree we need to take people off of welfare and put them to work but also at a living wage. i live in california and i don't see how people get by on minimum wage and it's these people that are going to be hurt the most by a consumption tax. everybody has to pay for food, clothing, gas, electricity, etc.... so a greater percentage of their income is going towards the necessities.
i'm not sure what government confiscations of businesses you are referring to other than maybe the S&L's but that was a because they were going under causing thousands of people their life savings and they did nothing wrong. if you are referring to government regulation i think as bad as it might seem it actually is for the better a lot of the time. look at enron, worldcom, the california energy crisis, etc.... maybe if the government would have been more vigilant millions of people wouldn't have lost their jobs and retirement accounts. just about every deregulated business in california has gotten worse with higher prices and worse customer service after deregulation. in theory deregulation should work but so far other than the airline industry (and most carriers are near bankruptcy) hasn't worked.
lastly, i agree with you wholeheartedly about getting rid of subsidization but those businesses are amongst the biggest campaign donors so i don't envision that happening anytime soon. FYI, the biggest recipient of farm subsidies is ArcherDanielsMidland, on of the largest corporations in the world.

BTW, hows the weather in 1000 palms this time of year?

My answer was a simplification of the problem. I'm not in 29...turns out they're shipping me to pendleton and I leave uh sometime next week supposedly.

Max Power · Apr 14, 2005

Number of reasons. Engineers overseas have been going to school 6-7 days a week since they were 4 years old. Japanese engineering is better than ours because their engineers are better trained and they work harder(for the most part).

Also, we want it both ways. We want Wal-Mart pricing on everything, yet unions want simple auto (or whatever) laborers with barely a high school education making $20 an hour. You can't have it both ways.

In short, we want more, and are willing to do less to have it.

Other countries aren't there yet. If they are prosperous enough, they will get there. It has happened that way since Rome and before.

Gud T.B. Blown · Apr 14, 2005

Max Power said:
Number of reasons. Engineers overseas have been going to school 6-7 days a week since they were 4 years old. Japanese engineering is better than ours because their engineers are better trained and they work harder(for the most part).

Also, we want it both ways. We want Wal-Mart pricing on everything, yet unions want simple auto (or whatever) laborers with barely a high school education making $20 an hour. You can't have it both ways.

In short, we want more, and are willing to do less to have it.

Other countries aren't there yet. If they are prosperous enough, they will get there. It has happened that way since Rome and before.

that makes sense. when i was growing up the attitude was more of how can i make a difference and know it seems to be what can you do for me.

63_Fairlane · Apr 15, 2005

Max Power said:
Number of reasons. Engineers overseas have been going to school 6-7 days a week since they were 4 years old. Japanese engineering is better than ours because their engineers are better trained and they work harder(for the most part).

Also, we want it both ways. We want Wal-Mart pricing on everything, yet unions want simple auto (or whatever) laborers with barely a high school education making $20 an hour. You can't have it both ways.

In short, we want more, and are willing to do less to have it.

Other countries aren't there yet. If they are prosperous enough, they will get there. It has happened that way since Rome and before.

While the study habbits of the Japanese in particular and other Asian societies in general are to be applauded for their work ethic. It does not necessarily make the best engineers. I, as a US born and trained engineer who worked for a Japanese based company, can personally attest to this truth, "book smarts and the real world do not always mesh. "

And, I agree. The tax system and our social policies are screwed. The top 5% of tax payers actually pay 53% the total income taxes. That is a pretty big burden on a relitively small part of the population. The top 50% of tax payers pay essentially 96% of all the income taxes. So, only half the adult, working population that files a tax return actually payes anything into the system. Scary!

http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/js1287.htm

samwe · Apr 15, 2005

pushrod power said:
in this country there has been wealth distribution but it has been mostly in the upper 1% of our population. reverse socialism i guess.

Redistribution too the top 1%? You realize they pay most of the taxes right? The lower and middle class pay very little in taxes.

as for being a fascist state i'll have to agree with you on that.

Not everywhere, not all states are California.

i agree we need to take people off of welfare and put them to work but also at a living wage.

Living wage? If you are making Minimum wage and it isn't enough, get a new job. Mandating a "living wage" as a minimum will have the same effect as giving everyone a pay cut. If you work hard to get raises and are now making $15/hr, and then they make the minimum $14, you are now just barely above minimum.

i live in california and i don't see how people get by on minimum wage and it's these people that are going to be hurt the most by a consumption tax. everybody has to pay for food, clothing, gas, electricity, etc.... so a greater percentage of their income is going towards the necessities.

You need to understand that when you tax corporate income they pass on that cost to the concumers via increased prices.
A consumption tax also means that everyone has equal opportunity to avoid taxes. No one has to buy a 50" big screen. If they do, they choose to pay the tax.
There is a group promoting a national sales tax. Fairtax.org. They propose a National Sales tax, each month you are given a refund for the tax on the amount determined to be the monthly cost of living. Frugal people acually end up ahead, big spenders pay more.

There is no free money available by taxing the rich.

O.T. What happened to US

Gud T.B. Blown

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