Okiee....my own thread...Pinginging

Synned

took tubgirl on a date and got banned
Mar 31, 2005
991
1
0
Philly
Alright guys, well here is my attempt to get my own pinging problem fixed...an attempt thats been going on for a while.
It will only ping while flooring in when going at least 40mph, like 3rd or 4th gear.
All of first and second is good, but it really feels like AS SOON as I switch into the next gear I hear the pinging.
I guess cause the engine has to work harder, less help with gearing.
But anyway, it does get better with less timing, but I'm at 10* and dont plan on backing it up anymore...I really would like to find the source instead of kind of bandaid it.
I have replaced these parts:
MAF
02's
ACT <--- This guy is kind of weird, tell you about that in a bit
ECT
Plugs, wires, fuel filter, and other normal maintenence.

Now on to my story of the ACT. My act is really weird...during the summer the only way I could get the car to run decently was to replace the ACT with a resistor wire, tricking the computer. A new ACT didn't do much to resolve my last issue, just the wire. The car would run crappy, hesitate and bog, but with the new resistor ran perfect.

Anyone have any ideas? I don't think I have a vacuum leak anywhere. I cleaned the MAF.
Maybe miraculously a $30 CAI will fix it? lol...that'll just get me more air. Maybe cause the MAF will be relocated. Grrrr what to do ...

:SNSign:
 
  • Sponsors (?)


if your egr was bad then you would get part throttle pinging so its not that

what gas do you run? does 93 make it go away? though it should run fine on 87

i dont thiink a vacuum leak would make you ping, ive had them and my car didnt ping:shrug:

is any wiring screwed up? if one of those sensors is not working properly then that could be why. sounds like you are having problems with one of them anyway....
 
I seem to have the same exact problem once my car gets warmed up. When its cold it will run through all gears at WOT with no pinging, then once the engine is hot, it pings in 3rd and 4th under a heavy load. I'm pretty sure it's an airflow related problem, in that the intake is sucking in hot air from the motor (i was running the stock intake with no silencer, now i have a K&N filter but with no heat shield) I plan on buying a fender well CAI to fix it. Also, running 93 octane vs. 89 or 87 holds off the pinging for a while longer.
 
Hey Joe

I been giving thought to this subject.

Sure, the prob is one or more of these:
too lean
too high spark
too lean & too high spark

Its great and all to know the prob :nice:
but ... if we don't have a fix :shrug:
The prob just continues :notnice:

You can invest a lot of time and spend a small fortune on
all the various sensors, sea foam, gas additive,
and all the other things you see other peeps have tried

and still ......

A lot of the time ... you see them continue to have the ping thing

The pcm values are the main prob here as I see it
based upon
The stuff I have seen from fooling around with our family of various pcm's

I got some ideas :D
but
first .... answer me these Questions ;)

At this time, do you have all systems in place and in good working order?

Is your hb in good shape so we know for a fact, your dizzy is at 10?

Grady
 
Hey Joe

I been giving thought to this subject.

Sure, the prob is one or more of these:
too lean
too high spark
too lean & too high spark

Its great and all to know the prob :nice:
but ... if we don't have a fix :shrug:
The prob just continues :notnice:

You can invest a lot of time and spend a small fortune on
all the various sensors, sea foam, gas additive,
and all the other things you see other peeps have tried

and still ......

A lot of the time ... you see them continue to have the ping thing

The pcm values are the main prob here as I see it
based upon
The stuff I have seen from fooling around with our family of various pcm's

I got some ideas :D
but
first .... answer me these Questions ;)

At this time, do you have all systems in place and in good working order?

Is your hb in good shape so we know for a fact, your dizzy is at 10?

Grady


All systems in place, down to the smog pump. All should be function 100%, no codes.

HB is a new balancer, but whats weird is that there is 2 timing strips on different places on it. When I started the car up the first time after the new hb it was shining around 13*, where it was set, so I'm using that timing strip.
Don't know why theres two though, on very different places.
 
if your egr was bad then you would get part throttle pinging so its not that

what gas do you run? does 93 make it go away? though it should run fine on 87

i dont thiink a vacuum leak would make you ping, ive had them and my car didnt ping:shrug:

is any wiring screwed up? if one of those sensors is not working properly then that could be why. sounds like you are having problems with one of them anyway....


Usually 91, but 93 does help, doesn't fix it though. Just takes it longer to come.
I'm thinking it might be wiring...My injector wiring for #2 was f'ed up earlier in the year, and nobody ever touched it, so It's possible...
 
I dont understand why anybody would use 87 octane on a modified Mustang...:bang: I have never run anything other than 93 unless for a Hurricane(natural disater ) and even then I ran octane booster to compensate and even turned down the timing......
 
When mine started pinging, it was random. Took a year for the problem to finally show really bad and make it obvious as to what it was. My stock distributor was shot. It was basically bouncing my timing all over the place.

Does your car pull any codes?

Oh, and I used to run 89 octane in my car. Modded yes, but not internally. Ran just fine. Why would he need to waste his money with stock timing and 93 octane gas? If he drives his stang as much as I did. 93 wouldn't have been a possibility. Hard to find around here and it's too dang pricey.
 
From the factory 94-95 Mustangs have way too much part throttle spark...

Where an A9L has spark values in the mid 30's (part throttle) a T4M0 is in the mid 50's. A tune fixes it right up.

Don

Hello Don

I know working with the spark table will do the trick :nice:

I have seen some say once you get into pinging situations ........
It takes a lot of spark reduction to kill it quickly
Do you agree?

Of course, lower spark table values will prevent it from happening
and
While I agree that is a proven method to kill the ping thing ....

Not all have the ability to do that.

I was wondering if you could throw some more fuel at it?

How about an afpr?

I know they effect the CL adaptive strategy?

Would you tell us if over a period of time
the 94-95 pcm will use the adaptive strategy to
dial back fuel in OL WOT conditions?

If that is so
then
I guess the additional pressure would be a temporary fix at best for ping?

Thanks Don :D

Grady
 
Hello Don

I know working with the spark table will do the trick :nice:

I have seen some say once you get into pinging situations ........
It takes a lot of spark reduction to kill it quickly
Do you agree?

Of course, lower spark table values will prevent it from happening
and
While I agree that is a proven method to kill the ping thing ....

Not all have the ability to do that.

I was wondering if you could throw some more fuel at it?

How about an afpr?

I know they effect the CL adaptive strategy?

Would you tell us if over a period of time
the 94-95 pcm will use the adaptive strategy to
dial back fuel in OL WOT conditions?

If that is so
then
I guess the additional pressure would be a temporary fix at best for ping?

Thanks Don :D

Grady

Good question...will the computer adapt...fuel at WOT. I think I read something JT said before about that, I think he said it increases pulse width.

I was ALWAYS able to run 87...out of the blue this pinging happened.
Could a weak fuel pump cause it? My pony has run out of gas before...

Anyhow...thanks again guys, I hope this hunt will turn out to kill this stupid problem.
 
Good question...will the computer adapt...fuel at WOT. I think I read something JT said before about that, I think he said it increases pulse width.

I was ALWAYS able to run 87...out of the blue this pinging happened.
Could a weak fuel pump cause it? My pony has run out of gas before...

Anyhow...thanks again guys, I hope this hunt will turn out to kill this stupid problem.

Joe

The concern for using an afpr would be a two fold thing :D

1) For regular or normal or non WOT which is Closed Loop driving .....
Additional fuel pressure would produce a richer than normal situation
thus
The Closed Loop only Adaptive System would decrease the injectors
pulse width to compensate for the afpr causing the over rich fuel ratio

2) If the Adaptive System's corrective adjustment is carried over to WOT
which is Open Loop, the additional fuel would be good for the ping
during WOT but only for a short time until the corrective adjustments
start to take place which then means

You are gonna go in the opposite direction with the fuel than needed

Did I explain this in a way that makes sense so you can see the issue
some peeps have with using elevated fuel pressure?

Grady
 
I dont understand why anybody would use 87 octane on a modified Mustang...:bang: I have never run anything other than 93 unless for a Hurricane(natural disater ) QUOTE]

"technically" a stock compression mustang can run fine on 87. but you will never see me running anything other than 93 in any of my vehicles. even my winter beater accord gets premium, and that car is beat to hell.

i have yet to understand this for cars in general. i have worked at a gas station for almost 3 years and it would shock you at how many people in benzes, acuras, bmw's etc. run regular when it specifiaclly says PREMIUM FUEL ONLY inside the gas door.

its especially worse on the newer cars because not only are a lot of them high compression motors, but the computer is also mapped for the burning traits of 93, which are very different from 87. i wish the manufacturers would void warrantees if the correct fuel was not used.
 
Typically, to get rid of ping at part throttle, you need to dial back the part throttle spark from like 55 at some points to 40ish - in some instances you have to pull 15* in certain cells - that's on a forced induction app. Usually NA you can pull less. The other thing you can do is leave the tip-in spark retard alone or just reduce but not eliminate it. That's the famed 'shift retard' that does not really exist and sometimes is OK to leave there. Especially on KB blower apps it helps get rid of part throttle, tip-in ping. Adding more fuel helps at WOT, but at part throttle you still are in CL where the A/F is set at 14.64, unless you change it or run 10% ethanol fuel - then it's 14.13.

Stock, most cars will apply corrections learned during CL operation to OL. Looking over the adaptive fuel table for the 94-95's, the GTs are NOT setup to do this from the factory, but the Cobra is. The 'wonderful' A9Ls ARE setup to apply CL corrections to OL though. Something to consider when doing a PIH swap. This all can be fixed pretty easy in a tune and we do it as a matter of course. Ford does this in case something happens like the MAF gets dirty and airflow calculations get messed up. It can then make a correction in CL to compensate and then in some cases apply this in OL. This is a really bad feature to have in blower/turbo cars.
 
I dont understand why anybody would use 87 octane on a modified Mustang...:bang: I have never run anything other than 93 unless for a Hurricane(natural disater ) and even then I ran octane booster to compensate and even turned down the timing......

The higher the octane you run, the less power you make. No exceptions. 87 make a bigger explosion than 93; 93 should only be used to prevent pre-ignition when a motor has high static or dynamic compression.

And furthermore, bumping your timing to 14 but having to run 93 so it won't ping is like hitting nitrous but forgetting your parking brake is on.
Scott
 
Makes perfect sense Grady.


So.....who wants to 'rent' me a twEEcer?
I'll give you a deposit for collateral ;)

We should have a StangNet twEEcer lol, one person can buy it and charge people to rent it.
With a twEEcer I would be able to modify the spark tables, but I would need to keep the twEEcer to keep the effect, correct? As soon as I remove it...it would be gone.
I guess I need a tune...but for a tune to stay do you need a chip burned?
I guess what I'm asking is can you modify the EEC directly?

Stock, most cars will apply corrections learned during CL operation to OL. Looking over the adaptive fuel table for the 94-95's, the GTs are NOT setup to do this from the factory, but the Cobra is. The 'wonderful' A9Ls ARE setup to apply CL corrections to OL though. Something to consider when doing a PIH swap. This all can be fixed pretty easy in a tune and we do it as a matter of course. Ford does this in case something happens like the MAF gets dirty and airflow calculations get messed up. It can then make a correction in CL to compensate and then in some cases apply this in OL. This is a really bad feature to have in blower/turbo cars.
So what your saying is, the GT computer will NOT adapt OL settings when you increase FP? Or did I read that wrong...
 
Well Joe

Your understanding of computers and all that stuff is way, way more better than mine, thats for sure :D

I'll give you my understanding of how I see the pcm and tweecer interface relationship :shrug:

The tweecer interface is programmed and that program overrides the factory pcm programming as long as the interface is installed in the pcm service port.

Like a chip, if the interface is removed, the pcm has nothing to modify its factory programming so Yes, a chip or tuner interface has to stay in place for the custom programming to be in effect.

Yes, with a tweecer, you could change spark table values and most any other pcm values you desire.

Of course, the PMS or SCT interfaces provide spark changes as well :nice:

About the info Don shared with all of us

I see it as he talked about three examples of CL adaptive changes having an effect on OL driving conditions.

T4M0 it does not
A9L Fox and J4J1 SN Cobra it does

I now would wonder what might happen if you did a little test to see if the pcm is effecting the fuel ratio in the lean direction over a period of time.

Get to normal operating temp
Find a road where you can duplicate the WOT ping at will
Pull over just after the ping has occurred so as not to let the temps drop too much
Disco the neg batt cable and step on the brake for about 15 seconds
Drive the car for about 5 minutes to stabilize temps and pcm start up strategy
Repeat the exact same WOT driving conditions that caused the ping

If the pcm was dialing back the fuel to the point it was causing ping
The reset and 5 minutes of drive time should give you a more rich af ratio

Then ... you would wanna pay close attention to see if the ping returns
thus
Making you think the pcm has pulled fuel over time.

Now having said all that ..................

Hope you can see it is all speculation on my part
but
That speculation is backed up with some logic by my findings
and
info we got from Don

So many peeps have asked me about the benefits of datalogging :D

Here is a perfect opportunity to see the benefit you have at your disposal when you can data log :nice:

You got datalogging to give you hard data ;)

You would use a dlog as a baseline to show the ping event happening
You then do the test as talked about above while dlogging
You then have hard data after changes to confirm or deny your speculations

No guess work to it :D
No opinions from others at work here as well ;)
Hard data is just what it is :nice:

Just the ................. unadulterated facts :)

You then get to say these wonderful words to yourself :banana:

"I just love it when my plan comes together" :rlaugh:

And some say :eek: self tuning is :bang:

Does this not show how it can be :nice: :banana:

Sometimes ........ its even a :spot: in the park!

Grady