Opinions: R302, Dart, World or Boss

01ragtop · May 10, 2008

Hack said:
I have seen several people posting on the Corral with their Boss block 347 builds - and they say their motors work great. So I'm not sure who to believe.

Two words: Custom Pistons

OTH, you could just use the money for the custom pistons and buy a Dart, or World block.

10secgoal · May 10, 2008

Hack said:
I still have trouble believing that Ford would set up the Boss block so that a conventional 347 stroker could not be done (or wouldn't be advisable). However, maybe I'm wrong.

I have seen several people posting on the Corral with their Boss block 347 builds - and they say their motors work great. So I'm not sure who to believe.

I'm just saying, that before article came out, or I measured, I saw it was shorter. With no preconceived notions before I saw the block. It stuck out like a sore thumb. I'm not guaranteeing anyone to have motor problems, but I wouldn't run one. This style motor has been around a while now, and with what we've learned about them and any other motor, the shorter sleeves, can't be good.(Ford has done many a things that boggle the mind. This would just add to the list. It's a good thing this place wasn't called Mustangnet.com a year ago huh ?)

fastcoupe68 · May 10, 2008

Joe Shermann who won the engine masters challenge and who has been building engines for quite some time now has called on the short skirt problem with the new boss block. he uses the new boss block on 347 builds all the time and i believe he is doing one for a build up to be in hot rod magazine very shortly. check the link
ken
http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/stroker-engines/472004-new-ford-boss-302-block.html

01ragtop · May 10, 2008

No one has said it can't be done. Custom pistons would go a long way to fixing the problem. All I said is that it could cause a reliability issue. There is a big difference in building an engine for a magazine spread, and building an engine that will have some longevity on the road.

As for him calling BS in the link you posted, if you keep reading there is a post with a link to some pictures that plainly show the shorter cylinder.

DK832 · May 10, 2008

SNAKEPILOT said:
[Snakepilot: nice paperweight! This is for a track car so it has to take turns well. Big blocks definitely not an option.

122lb block = paperweight?[/QUOTE]

Sarcasm... Sorry, my preconceived euro opinion on big blocks. Didn't notice it was an aluminum one!

Did I ever open a can of worms on the Boss stroker issue.
Anyway its going to go the R302 route.

10secgoal · May 10, 2008

fastcoupe68 said:
Joe Shermann who won the engine masters challenge and who has been building engines for quite some time now has called on the short skirt problem with the new boss block. he uses the new boss block on 347 builds all the time and i believe he is doing one for a build up to be in hot rod magazine very shortly. check the link
ken
http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/stroker-engines/472004-new-ford-boss-302-block.html

Maybe he doesn't know how to use a tape measure. Everyone measures them shorter but him ?
But quite honestly winning a competition like that doesn't prove to me it won't have longevity or reliability problems.

fastcoupe68 · May 10, 2008

10secgoal said:
Maybe he doesn't know how to use a tape measure. Everyone measures them shorter but him ?
But quite honestly winning a competition like that doesn't prove to me it won't have longevity or reliability problems.

How many new boss 302 motors have you built? And until you have been around for 30 years or so with the reputation that Joe Shermann has I would tend to believe the Joe Shermann angle. And I also realise that Shermann is only one person and not the end all on this subject But I know of 2 more very reputable engine builders who have recently used the new boss block and have built 347 with them and as of now no problems what so ever! Supply me with concrete evidence, not just hersey that its no good and I'll rethink my opinion. Until then I would have no problem using the new boss block
ken

10secgoal · May 10, 2008

fastcoupe68 said:
How many new boss 302 motors have you built? And until you have been around for 30 years or so with the reputation that Joe Shermann has I would tend to believe the Joe Shermann angle. And I also realise that Shermann is only one person and not the end all on this subject But I know of 2 more very reputable engine builders who have recently used the new boss block and have built 347 with them and as of now no problems what so ever! Supply me with concrete evidence, not just hersey that its no good and I'll rethink my opinion. Until then I would have no problem using the new boss block
ken

I haven't built ANY motors with the boss block....nor will I ever. For that reason, and that one alone.
If you tell someone what I'm telling you, it's hearsay. What I am saying, is from the horses mouth. "I" have personally seen them. Again, not saying it WILL cause problems because nothing is concrete. But I tend to lean towards the physics side, than "Big Joe." Doubt at this point any of the motors are even old enough to show the wear yet.
FWIW guys. I've talked to many famous builders, like ones that build TV show motors and some of the stuff that comes out of their mouth is UNREAL. The last winner told me he had NEVER seen in his 30+ years of building motors (including building motors for American Hotrod), he had NEVER seen a SBF head bolt go into a cooling jacket. He was then offended when I asked how small block Fords he had built is his "30+ years." Just because your famous, doesn't mean you know what your talking about. My low key non famous machinist has assembled many a motors that I can pretty much promise you make more than what Joe gets to play with. And I'm not saying he doesn't know his stuff. I'm just saying if you don't wanna hear the hearsay, don't just take his word on it because of his name.

fastcoupe68 · May 10, 2008

Doesnt have anything to do with being famous and I also never met a magazine mechanic that i liked and almost all these "famous" engine guys that are on tv. Don't even know " Joe Shermann" personally but his reputation in the industry, very well recieved. But everythime I read one of these posts bashing something on hersay just cracks me up, and it happens way to often without fact to back it up. I have a pretty good back round in engine building, restoring and building hot rods, actually have my own shop, 15 years and counting! I dont come here and post when I dont have any facts to back it up. And please dont take this as an attack on you. I admire the work you have done on many of the cars on here ( had a car you did a turbo on as my backround on the computer) I guess as the saying goes, "everyone has an opinion" and yours is well taken. Just one more thing the R302 block is being discontinued and replaced by the new boss block.
ken

65ShelbyClone · May 10, 2008

There is a local speedshop here that had a Boss block on the floor last time I was there. I can tell you that the bores were obviously visually shorter than a stock block. With all this bickering, I might have to head over there on Monday with some calipers and a camera....

brianj5600 · May 10, 2008

Ken, this picture does not support Joe's statement touted above. "That is all B---- S----/ The cylinders are all the same as the stock 302 blocks." Stock blocks have cylinders of 5.125" in length. That sure looks like 4.75". The angle is not great, but it looks like it is shorter than a stock 302. I am not sure if there has been a change in design or what.

fastcoupe68 · May 10, 2008

brianj5600 said:
Ken, this picture does not support Joe's statement touted above. "That is all B---- S----/ The cylinders are all the same as the stock 302 blocks." Stock blocks have cylinders of 5.125" in length. That sure looks like 4.75". The angle is not great, but it looks like it is shorter than a stock 302. I am not sure if there has been a change in design or what.

Read my post again! I did not state anything about the length of the cylinder wall, just that it was not a problem in a stroker application. If the length is different then ok! what I took from the thread was it was not a problem in a stroked application.
ken

Hack · May 11, 2008

What I've read is that Ford DELIBERATELY made the cylinder walls shorter so that they wouldn't required extra machine work to clearance the bottoms for strokers. So Ford changed the Boss block so it would work better for stroking.

01ragtop · May 11, 2008

fastcoupe68 said:
Read my post again! I did not state anything about the length of the cylinder wall, just that it was not a problem in a stroker application. If the length is different then ok! what I took from the thread was it was not a problem in a stroked application.
ken

Not is so many words, but you posted a link so we could all read what Joe Sherman had to say:

That is all B---- S----/ The cylinders are all the same as the stock 302 blocks. I built one with a 3.50 stroke, NO PROBLEMS

I read that same thread over there, and it is inconclusive at best.

01ragtop · May 11, 2008

Hack said:
What I've read is that Ford DELIBERATELY made the cylinder walls shorter so that they wouldn't required extra machine work to clearance the bottoms for strokers. So Ford changed the Boss block so it would work better for stroking.

I have read that too, but I am not sure where. If it is true that Ford did this intentionally to make a 347 require less machine work, then they inadvertently chopped off an important piece of piston stabilization. It would have been better if they had cast in the proper notching.

NewStangOwnr · May 11, 2008

Dart Sportsman for sure. Well i guess you made your desicion. Take progress pictures!

10secgoal · May 11, 2008

fastcoupe68 said:
Doesnt have anything to do with being famous and I also never met a magazine mechanic that i liked and almost all these "famous" engine guys that are on tv. Don't even know " Joe Shermann" personally but his reputation in the industry, very well recieved. But everythime I read one of these posts bashing something on hersay just cracks me up, and it happens way to often without fact to back it up. I have a pretty good back round in engine building, restoring and building hot rods, actually have my own shop, 15 years and counting! I dont come here and post when I dont have any facts to back it up. And please dont take this as an attack on you. I admire the work you have done on many of the cars on here ( had a car you did a turbo on as my backround on the computer) I guess as the saying goes, "everyone has an opinion" and yours is well taken. Just one more thing the R302 block is being discontinued and replaced by the new boss block.
ken

Take it personally ? A little. Being called out by using a big name builder to compare to what I've done, can make one defensive. He's built a few more motors than me, and probably knows a few more tricks . But that doesn't make his comment correct. I highly encourage him to actually measure it before he removes the left foot to insert the right again.I don't feel the need to prove it. If people want to risk 5k in a short block and find out the hard way, then by all means. There are people that wouldn't believe a picture. What I stated was fact, and I encourge anyone whos thinking about it, to call for and find out for themselves. You'll probably get the same answer I did. "it's about 1/4 inch shorter."
But no worries Ken, no grudges. I just hope Ford doesn't F up again and scrap the casting like they do everything else. There are still R302's around in bundles.

Opinions: R302, Dart, World or Boss

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