Power difference in HO and non.

MusPuppis · Nov 24, 2004

Curious as to the power difference in the 5.0 H.O and the non.

I was told when I got the engine I put in my truck it was an HO. The intake said it was and frankly I havent the slightest idea how to tell other than that.. but for some odd reason it wont run with the HO firing order. I had to use the non ho to get it going.. Which means its not an HO =/

Now before I raise hell and start screaming at the guy I got the engine from I'm just curious as to the difference in power and performance from the two engines.

Thanks.

TrickStang37 · Nov 24, 2004

it could be a huge difference. I dont know of any non HO fuel injected 302's being stout.

MusPuppis · Nov 25, 2004

Allrighty.

I'm gonna get in touch with him when he gets back from vacation and see what the hell is going on. Im extatic I got the truck running but if this engine isnt what he claims it is I'm gonna be EXTREMELY pissed off.

88stangnut · Nov 25, 2004

The difference is that a HO motor has roller cam and roller rockers and maybe different heads???. But i do know also it has different pistons unless its a 93 motor. But yes the firing order is different, I remeber accedentally doing the NON on my HO motor and it wouldent run right. And also the HO motor has a bigger TB and maybe better intake manifold

MusPuppis · Nov 25, 2004

This motor has been rebuilt.. Bored over, pistons, head work etc etc, so I'm gonna hope the issues with a non HO have been worked out.. If not.. BAh.

TrickStang37 · Nov 25, 2004

the injectors will be different too, the HO came with orange #19 vs the non HO has gray #14. the intake manifold is different too, but looks mostly the same.

Maryland Stang · Nov 25, 2004

Pull a valve cover, pull out a pushrod and look down in the hole the pushrod came out of. You should be able to see whether or not it's a roller cam by looking at the lifters.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 25, 2004

Wow….there’s a lot of misinformation and outright guessing on this thread. Lets see if I can sort it out for you newbs …..

Late model ’85-up HO engines have a roller cam....but so doa lot of late model non-HO (Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, Lincoln) engines. The same goes for injectors….many non-HO engines used 19lb injectors as well, so just because they’re orange, doesn’t mean they’re matted to an HO. Both HO's and non-HO’s come with 1.6:1 stamped steel roller rockers and both the truck and HO use the same E7TE heads (E5AE on ’85 HO and E6SE on ’86 HO). The HO uses either forged or in later years (92-95) hypereutectic pistons, where the non-HO uses cast pistons, but they both use the same rods and crank. The truck and car manifold are completely different as well. If a Crown Vic motor was used, then the manifolds may visually resemble one and other, but the Throttle Body opening will be 50mm as oppose to 60mm (58mm on ’86). If you pull off the plenum cover on an ’87-up HO, the “HO” insignia will be stamped right on it. Visually, the only noticeable difference between the two is going to be the HO (351W) firing order. Pulling the distributor would tell you whether or not it had a roller camshaft, as the distributor gear would be bronze, rather than ductile iron. But you’d have to be careful not to knock timing out of whack if you were not sure how to put it back together. Intake covers, valve covers, throttle bodies, exhaust and even intake manifolds can be changed out, so don’t be fooled just because it says “5.0 HO” on the plenum cover.

Horsepower can vary greatly from Non-HO being 145-165hp and 245-285lbs ft/tq to HO’s which were anywhere from 210-225hp and 265-300lbs ft/tq.

Any other questions?

ratrapp · Nov 25, 2004

yeah the power difference does suck.i've got a non-ho out of a 90 grand marquis in my 88.it had a roller cam but used the non-ho firing order. i've had to do all kinds of mods to it to get it to run like a near stock 5.0.i was in a bind and needed a motor quick and was all i could find.

JB66 · Nov 25, 2004

You can mod the windsor block to equal power levels using either firing order. If this guy told you specifically it was a mustang HO motor, then it should have the HO firing order, HO heads, HO throttle body and HO injectors at least. Without disassembling it and checking specific part #'s and casting #'s there's no way positive to tell. You WILL feel the difference in power however. That you can't mistake.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 25, 2004

JB66 said:
You can mod the windsor block to equal power levels using either firing order. If this guy told you specifically it was a mustang HO motor, then it should have the HO firing order, HO heads, HO throttle body and HO injectors at least. Without disassembling it and checking specific part #'s and casting #'s there's no way positive to tell. You WILL feel the difference in power however. That you can't mistake.

Yes, you can, but in order to change the firing order, you've got swap out the cam shaft...and even still, just a cam swap doesn't bring you up to HO power levels. Besides, that's a lot of work and money to do, for someone to decieve the seller into to thinking he's got a true HO.

That being said, 83-84 HO's used the 351W firing order, but were not roller blocks.....which is not what you want.

JB66 · Nov 25, 2004

You and I are saying the same thing Gearbanger. I'm trying to point out that if it is a true HO motor it WILL have the 351 firing order. You can get an identical specification cam that uses the std 302 firing order, but that doesn't make it an HO.

MusPuppis · Nov 26, 2004

Allrighty.

See, I didnt question the guy at all in this deal since hes a friend of mine. Not a close one, but he IS a close friend of several of my other friends. Anyway. Ive been talking to them trying to find out where this motor came from while I wait for him to get back from Florida. It came from either an 87, 88 or 92 LX. I pulled it out of an 89 LX but I know it wasnt that cars original engine. I was with him when he bought that body.. No engine or tranny. See, what I'm worried about is that he didnt know the motor wasnt an HO.. He was putting it in the little fox body he bought with the intention of turning it all into a little track car. It seems odd to me he would have knowingly been working with a dinky engine.

It uses this firing order: 1 5 4 2 6 3 7 8. It has an HO upper and lower intake. I know this because I got ahold of another friend ( I have too many friends.. ) who sold him the intake off his GT. As to the rest of the engine, I have only his word and a few confirmations from folks. Its bored .30 over, new pistons, fully rebuilt, ported heads bleh bleh. So assuming its a *decent* non HO with whats done to it it should still put its weight hopefully. If not.. Well, bleh.

What I would like to know is the easiest way to tell if it is or isnt a roller motor. I heard I could pull a valve cover off and tell that way.. But as stupid as it sounds I dont know how to tell. I'm new to V8's in general. Ive had my head up 4 cylinder ass for the last couple years and just dont have any experience with pushrod engines.

Thanks folks.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 26, 2004

Pulling a valve cover won't tell you anything. The very fact that it's using a 302 firing order (1 5 4 2 6 3 7 8) confirms that it’s running at non-HO specs! ALL late model HO engines use the 351W firing order (1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8). Had you asked us earlier, I would have suggested for you to take a pass on this motor and find a true HO. This engine seems as though it's been passed around so many times and uses so many mixed and matched parts, that you probably don't want it anyway. First off, based on the cam selection, it's been rebuilt to standard 302 specs. At best, you might have a standard 302 roller block, out of a Crown Vic or Lincoln, which isn’t the end of the world, but is going to require swapping the heads and cam to get it anywhere close to a true HO’s output. It’s also possibly a non roller flat tappet 302, which is even less desirable). Secondly, it may have been rebuilt as cheaply as possible……a .030 overbore sounds great, until you find out it was stuffed with cast aluminum pistons.

Unless you're way in over your head on this one, or are nearly broke, I’d cut my losses and try to sell this engine off, or at the very least tear it down to confirm exactly what it is and start from scratch....if you want a true HO that is. But as of now, there's really no way of telling beyond the firing order, what this engine is…..at least now without taking parts off, anyway. And like I said earlier, based on the standard 302 firing order, it already sounds bogus.

Keep us updated.

MusPuppis · Nov 26, 2004

Thanks for the info.

I'll let you guys know what ends up happening. Sadly, I'm in a really bad position right now so I cant just dump the motor and get another one. I gotta get my truck running and functional ASAP.

Hes due back from Florida in like a week.. Hopefully I'll get some info from him and figure out what the deal is. As far as Im concerned he owes me something for this. I traded him an 89 F-150 in good shape for this engine and tranny (I got the rest of the Mustang it was in as well but most of it was useless and I just gave it back). I'm thinking he needs to do something to make amends.

Well, regardless. I dont think the rebuild was cheaply dont. I talked to a friend of his who was with him when he had it done. It used a Keith Black rebuild kit or something.. If that means anything to anyone. I despise sounding so stupid but I dont know exactly what all that entails but I am told my a number of sources that its a good thing. *shrug*

I think once I get the truck running and the swap completed I'm just gonna find myself a real HO and build it up myself, on the side so I KNOW what the hell is done to it and that the work was done quality. I got screwed this time cause I trusted someone I considered a friend.

Thanks again for the info guys, Ill keep ya all updated.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 26, 2004

Keith Black kits use hypereutectic pistons. Better than cast, but still not as tough as forged. Good for a reasonable amount of horsepower.

hllon4whls · Nov 26, 2004

Makes you wonder why ford didnt make all of the motors HO motors? Who wouldnt want 220 hp in a crown vic vs 165?

HISSIN50 · Nov 26, 2004

hllon4whls said:
Who wouldnt want 220 hp in a crown vic vs 165?

old people.

MusPuppis · Nov 26, 2004

I am a raging asshat.

Ok. So like 2 minutes after my last post I went out to check some things in the truck. Started her up and got it to idle and went to work looking the engine over and such ( I had a couple drops of oil in the garage from last night and I'm trying to find the source..). Well, being alone, with no one talking to me or bugging me and my garage amplifying the engine I noticed something interesting.. It just didnt sound right. Something was off.. a miss or something. So I check the wires and made sure they were all on right and none were damaged.. But in the process I noticed something.. The wires just didnt look right. The order seemed off.. So I pulled them all off and redid it from scratch.. but the the HO firing order.. I dunno, I had some nagging feeling or something. So anyway.. I get em all on properly and go to start the engine.. Boom. It turns over and just purrs. No miss, no issues, it just runs near perfect.. I stand back and quite literally smack myself in the face hard enough to leave a big ass red hand print.

So.. When I was originally trying to get it to run with the HO firing order.. I must have had something off or placed wrong. How I failed to notice that when I checked the order 10 times or more I have no idea.. So I switched it over the non HO and it worked.. I assumed that was the problem. Well.. It friggen wasnt and I feel like the worlds largest dip****, making all this damn fuss because I'm an imbecile.

The moral of the story is: John is a twit and he likes to jump to conclusions.

*grumbles* Well, I'm happy for my truck and the engine, but quite thoroughly mad at myself over this. Ive been in a funk for the last few days over this crap.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 26, 2004

Glad to see that you got it running right. It could have been worse, you could have torn it half apart before finding the mistake. But….this post confuses me??? You switched it from the HO firing order to the Non-HO firing order and it ran, or the other way around?

Power difference in HO and non.

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