Problems with starter

mike_o · Jul 24, 2006

Hi I´m a new guy from Sweden on this board.
I´ve tried to get an answear on my question on a Swedish mustang forum but without sucess so I hope I can get some help here

I have a problem with my starter. When I turn the key and start the engine my starter ofthen fails to start the engine cause it doesn´t come in to the flywheel correct so it misses the gears, and the starter just "screams".
I´ve took away the starter and the little gear wheel is a little worn out in the front.
I have a 4speed man tranny.
I´ve ordered a new starter for a 4spd man and it does the same thing. When I took away the starter I saw that it´s damaged at the front. I think the flywheel did that damage, see attached picture arrow 1 (if it works). But how do I make the flywheel come further in to the starter as arrow 2, I guess where the arrow number 2 is where the flywheel should be in the starting position.
Maybe a previous owner have installed different parts that don´t work together as tranny, clutch and flywheel. Cause non of that is original on the car from factory
Is here anyone that have an idea what the problem could be? Cause I´m running out of mine.
Otherwise my next steep would be to cut on the bellhousing were the starter is to make it come further in or I have to bought all new stuff for my car that I know match together. But I don´t have the money for that

thanks
mike

jikelly · Jul 24, 2006

I had a similar problem when I recived a starter for a manuel instead of a C4 automatic from the parts store. I installed a Tremec 5 speed into my 73 and reused the starter for the C4 automatic. What year is your stang by the way?

A67StangMaster · Jul 24, 2006

when i had my first mustang i had the engine rebuilt and when i was putting it back together i saw that the flexplate had been bent due to over tighting
check and see if it is stright or if its rubing agaist anything?

And welcome to :SNSign:

Rusty67 · Jul 24, 2006

There are 2 different flywheel ring gears. one is 157 teeth and the other is 164 teeth. These different ring gears need different starter gears. You need to figure out which ring gear you have an order the correct starter. If it is an original 4 speed flywheel, chances are its 164 teeth.

ashford · Jul 25, 2006

Rusty67 said:
There are 2 different flywheel ring gears. one is 157 teeth and the other is 164 teeth. These different ring gears need different starter gears. You need to figure out which ring gear you have an order the correct starter. If it is an original 4 speed flywheel, chances are its 164 teeth.

i completely disagree. different size ring gears require different size bellhousings and backing plates(starter bolt holes are moved). different starters for different ring gears are the way chevy does it since the starter is bolted to the engine.

ford has 3 different starter nose cones for small block. 1 is for almost all automatics and the t-5. and the manuals have 2 different starter depths depending on the flywheel.
your best bet is to go the parts store and ask to look at the parts book and determine what different 2 there are for manuals. and choose the one that isnt what you just got. be warned ther are many different starters with the same nose cone depth and it may take awhile.try to stay in the same year and engine size.

Rusty67 · Jul 25, 2006

I've been through this with 2 of my friends. You can bolt a starter for a 4 speed 164 tooth count onto a c4 or t5 and vice versa. Both of my friends went through 3 or 4 differernt starters and both of them dicked the ring gear. The backplate/bellhousing has NOTHING to do with the teeth count on the ring gear. The ring gear fits on the outside of the flywheel or flexplate and they are about the same size. It would not change enough to require a larger bellhousing. The blockplate is matched to the bellhousing for starter positioning.

After all that, we still don't know what is actually in there. The previous owner could have done a number of different things to throw it all off. The reality of the situation is that no one really knows whats in there and that is why I sugested finding out which ring gear is on there.

302 coupe · Jul 25, 2006

the starter does not care how many teeth are on the ring gear. The teeth all have the same spacing and pitch, reagrdless of 157 or 164. The flexplate or flywheel has a slightly larger diameter, thus requiring the addition of 7 more teeth. The only starter differences are nose depth. The different toothed ring gears do require use of the appropriate bellhousing and blockplate to space the starter further out, because the 164 tooth stuff has a larger diameter. If you could get your info right, you and friends wouldn't have to replace starters all the time.

Rusty67 · Jul 25, 2006

If that is true then how is it that people with T5's use the stock T5 bell and block plate and 164 tooth flywheel ?

I myself have used 2 different sized flywheels on my motor. A 10 inch and 10.5 inch. I used the same starter with both of them. They are both 157 tooth and I have never had a problem.

The only reason I have ever changed MY starter is because I went to a late model high torque mini-starter (a very worth while upgrade).

spirockp · Jul 25, 2006

Remember my few long winded treads?

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=629315&highlight=flexplate

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=630029&highlight=flexplate

Well it was never really solved like I thought it was. BUT..........!!!!!!! I just solved it this weekend. All this time it was my flexplate. It was warn enough to give me my starting issues. A new flexplate completely solved my problems. (I hope)

mike_o · Jul 25, 2006

starter

I have a 157 flexplate. A problem is that I don´t know if my flexplate, clutch, transmission, bellhousing can be the problem. I don´t think one of them is original on my car, so maybe a previous owner have put the wrong parts together. I have a 4spd man, maybe it´s my bellhousing that doesen´t is correct to my transmission. I´ve attached a pic of it, maybe one of you guys can tell if it works with my tranny?
Also where can I find a longer aluminium nose for my starter? I´ve looked here in Sweden and the stores here only sells one starter/aluminium nose.

mike

A67StangMaster · Jul 25, 2006

Like I said Before I think its a Bad FlexPlate.

302 coupe · Jul 25, 2006

Rusty67 said:
If that is true then how is it that people with T5's use the stock T5 bell and block plate and 164 tooth flywheel ?

I myself have used 2 different sized flywheels on my motor. A 10 inch and 10.5 inch. I used the same starter with both of them. They are both 157 tooth and I have never had a problem.

The only reason I have ever changed MY starter is because I went to a late model high torque mini-starter (a very worth while upgrade).

The 164 tooth flywheel will (very snugly)fit inside the 157 bellhousing, theres not much difference in diameter. The starter, on paper at least, should not properly align if its used on a 157 tooth bell/block plate. If it does fit, chances are its putting the starter bushing in a bind when the gear is engaged. I've compared all this stuff side by side and the 164tooth bell and the 157 tooth bell do locate the starter differently. Stock 5.0/T5 stuff is 157 tooth, like early model mustangs. I don't know why a 164 tooth fly would be used for the swap. Regardless, if somebody stumbles upon a combination that works, more powa to 'em. If you go somewhere and ask for a starter for a 164 tooth ford, or a 157 tooth ford, you won't have much luck. The gear on the starter is universal. Only nose depth and mounting location differ.

Rusty67 · Jul 25, 2006

Ok, well it looks like that dispute is cleared up.

Now, if he is using a 4 speed, he should have a 164 tooth flywheel but he says he has a 157 tooth. In this case it would seem that he needs a different flywheel ? Or can he just change the ring gear on his to match ?

mike_o · Jul 25, 2006

starter

When I bought the car I took out the engine, tranny and clutch to see what condition it was in and I bought some new parts to replace the old ones. I can say that the starter have always done this even when I bought it, but it didn´t miss as much when I tried to start it as it do now. I bought a new (hmm don´t know the word) tooth/cog wheel? to the flywheel. The old one was a 157 tooth so I bought a new 157 tooth and replaced it.
So should I buy a new 164 tooth flywheel? Should it be 164 for a 4spd man?
Or should I try to find a starter with the longer aluminium nose cone? Where can I find that? Cause here in Sweden they only sell one starter for manual transmissions.
As you can see in my first post the picture of the starter, the nose cone is to close the flywheel so the nose cone should be longer.

thanks for the reply I really appriciate it since I don´t have a clue what to do. But I think we´re getting closer to what the problem is :SNSign:

mike

ashford · Jul 25, 2006

throw us some casting numbers and we should have most all the info we need. they generally start in this format- c7ae roughly translated to 67 mid size car engine part.first letter is decade c=60's d=70's so on so forth. second number is the year in the decade. third is the car line a=midsize, o=fullsize, z=mustang, t=pickup truck h=heavy truck. last is the part grouping e=engine a=axle and driveline b=body.
as for a 157 flywheel ive only seen them in t-5' early 289's and some six bangers.

also if you have a caliper measure the depth from blocking plate to ring gear. then take this measurement to the nose cone. from the mounting surface to the end of the starter drive(the name you couldn't remember). and the caliper should be about an 1/8 inch longer.

mike_o · Jul 26, 2006

I´m not sure I got the measurement that you ment, but I took some on the starter and the starter. And as you can see it won´t work good at all. Since the starter isn´t that far inside the bellhousing.
It seems like I should buy a 164 tooth wheel since the 157 is rarely used on the cars.
I have the casting number on the bellhousing C5DA-6394-A. Is that bellhouse correct for my 4spd tranny?
Also with other parts should I take casting numbers on? Maybe flywheel, and all the clutch parts? I´m guessing I should find casting numbers on all the parts?

thanks
mike

pabear89 · Jul 26, 2006

First thing....Flexplate's are for Automatic,
Flywheel's are for manual.

As the Flexplate is named for the thinner steel plate with an outer ring gear for the starter to engage to turn engine and connect the Torque converter to the engines crank.

A flywheel is thicker and much heavier with a outer ring gear also, It has a smooth contact surface for the clutchplate to engage when the pressureplate is applying its clamping force.

The starter for automatic's have the short nose because the ring gear is closer to the engine block with a flexplate.
The manual trans starter is longer nosed to center the starters gear drive to the ring gear.

Yes the auto starter can be use in manuals, If you like to change starters alot.
While it does work properly when first installed, after a short period of time the tip of the starters gear gets rounded off because it is not engaging the ring gear completley.
You will start getting half cranks of the engine.....changing to a spinning starter motor when tring to start the engine.
Till all you have is a spinning starter,
So you replace the starter again.

PB

ashford · Jul 27, 2006

found you the answer you need an oddball starter
http://lists.twistedpair.ca/pipermail/classic-mustangs/1997-September/006195.html

but a 157 tooth 28 oz. is hard to find(spent alot of time finding one so i could put a t-5 behind a 289)but speedway motors has one http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/display_id.898/itemNo.flywheel/qx/Product.htm
this would get you the right offset for your current starter. btw this flywheel will accept either a 10.5 clutch from a newer mustang or a standard 10.

Rusty67 · Jul 27, 2006

Couldn't he just change his ring gear to 164 teeth and then use a 4 speed starter ?

mike_o · Aug 6, 2006

Finally I´ve fixed the problem with my starter. I bought a nose cone for a automatic starter that was longer than the manual nose cone. Now the var starts without any problem.
Thanks for the help

mike

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