Flex plate and starter issues

[RJH46]

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I've posted this in the wrong place.
I'm trying to help my grandson with a project vehicle he has purchased. It is an early Datsun 620 pickup that has had a Ford V8 and an automatic transmission shoe horned into it. The current issue is that it has completely chewed up the starter pinion gear and flex plate. The seller said the engine was from a 5.0 L Mustang and the transmission is a C6, but we are not sure of anything. The register for the starter in the block spacer plate has been ground out oversize so it no longer positions the starter correctly in relation to the 164 tooth flex plate. I would like to start by positively identifying just what it is that we have.
How do we identify what engine we have?
How do we identify what transmission and bell housing we have?
How do we identify what flex plate we have?
How do we identify what block spacer plate we have?
How do we identify what starter we have?
Once we know just what it is that we are working with hopefully we could get some recommendations on what we should do to fix the problem.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[General karthief]

You're gonna be yank'n that trans out to fix the flywheel/starter/block plate issues so there's that, now to ID the block you have to pull the starter and there are date codes in that area.

 

[nickyb]

Pull it out and post pics of all numbers you find and I'm sure stangnet can come to your rescue "dat soon"

 

[RJH46]

Thanks for the responses. It looks like the only way to get the transmission out would be to pull the engine first, or do it as a unit. However, we should be able to split the unit and move the transmission back about 4 inches ,which should be enough to get block plate out and do some measurements on the bolt patterns for the block and bell housing. I'll report back when this is done and we have some identifying numbers.

 

[nickyb]

Don't forget to post pics of everthing.

 

[RJH46]

Update:
My grandson (Devin) and his Dad are going to get the truck up on blocks so they can pull the starter out and see if there are casting numbers on the block to identify the engine. The front left suspension torsion bar has to come out first. (aren't hot rods fun?). Then they will disconnect the transmission and move it back as much as they can to get access to the block spacer plate. He will be joining the group so he can send some more photos and correspond directly with the group instead of having to go through me.

In the mean time I'll give you some more back ground.

He hasn't had the truck very long and it didn't show any signs of starter issues. He had it shop class at school , went to start it and the starter wouldn't engage. Just made a horrid grinding noise. To make a long story short he replaced the starter and flex plate with the same as was in it before but couldn't get the starter to engage at all, just noise. Time to call in the experts before he ruined another starter and flex plate.

I'm attaching a few photos of the original starer and flex plate. Obviously there is a serious mismatch somewhere.

 

[General karthief]

Ok, you need to do some investigating,
First, find what 5.0 engine is in the car, some have a different weight so the flywheel must match, there's also a tooth count on the flywheel, so that has to match the bell housing,
So we need to ID what's in there first.

 

[RJH46]

Update:
My grandson (Devin) and his Dad are going to get the truck up on blocks so they can pull the starter out and see if there are casting numbers on the block to identify the engine. The front left suspension torsion bar has to come out first. (aren't hot rods fun?). Then they will disconnect the transmission and move it back as much as they can to get access to the block spacer plate. He will be joining the group so he can send some more photos and correspond directly with the group instead of having to go through me.

In the mean time I'll give you some more back ground.

He hasn't had the truck very long and it didn't show any signs of starter issues. He had it shop class at school , went to start it and the starter wouldn't engage. Just made a horrid grinding noise. To make a long story short he replaced the starter and flex plate with the same as was in it before but couldn't get the starter to engage at all, just noise. Time to call in the experts before he ruined another starter and flex plate.

I'm attaching a few photos of the original starer and flex plate. Obviously there is a serious mismatch somewhere.

Ok, you need to do some investigating,
First, find what 5.0 engine is in the car, some have a different weight so the flywheel must match, there's also a tooth count on the flywheel, so that has to match the bell housing,
So we need to ID what's in there first.

 

[RJH46]

Right. We'll get back to you with the casting number as soon as we can. One more thing I should have included in my last post. The part number for the old starter is a re manufactured ACDelco 336-1031. The nose cone depth is about 2 1/4". The part number for the current starter is a new ACDelco 337-1057. I can't give you the nose cone measurement yet. The part number for the new flex plate is a Pioneer FRA-205, 164 tooth. The spec says it has a 28 oz weight and I'm told it looked identical to the old one. We'll get back to you with the plate to block measurements.

 

[RJH46]

Right. We'll get back to you with the casting number as soon as we can. One more thing I should have included in my last post. The part number for the old starter is a re manufactured ACDelco 336-1031. The nose cone depth is about 2 1/4". The part number for the current starter is a new ACDelco 337-1057. I can't give you the nose cone measurement yet. The part number for the new flex plate is a Pioneer FRA-205, 164 tooth. The spec says it has a 28 oz weight and I'm told it looked identical to the old one. We'll get back to you with the plate to block measurements.

 

[RJH46]

Update: Still working on getting the starter out and the transmission moved back, but I thought I'd better see what balancer we have. Looks to me like it is a 50 oz balancer, but the new flex plate is 28 oz, which might not be usable. So I had another look at the old flex plate. I could not find any numbers on it but the weight looks substantial, so perhaps it is a 50 oz. I'm told the engine had no excessive vibrations with that plate. Can anyone tell from the photos what weight the old one had?

Its beginning to look like this is an 80s FI engine. It is definitely a 302, based on measurements between heads and the distributor location. The timing cover has a flange for a mechanical fuel pump but the casting has no access to a cam eccentric. It has an aftermarket in line electric fuel pump. When we get at the casting numbers that should give us a better idea of exactly what engine we have.

 

[RJH46]

We have a block number. It wasn't where and what I expected but it looks like "F1SE". The transmission is a C6 based on the shape of the pan and the bolt count (17).
So, based on what we have found so far, what starter, flex plate and block separator plate should we have for this combination?

 

[General karthief]

Make sure you have a 50oz flexplate C6 and the corresponding harmonic balancer. Block plate for a C6 too (I think).

 

[Fordsun]

Hello from the Dad that (for some unknown reason ‍) allowed his 17 year old son to buy this Frankenstein of a project ‍.

Upfront, we just wanna say, we are very grateful and are counting on the wisdom and knowledge from the Stang community .

I will post a couple of pictures of our project so you get an idea of what we are working with here.

As Robert said above, what we think we have ( but not 100% sure of anything cuz the more research we do the more confusing it gets) is a late 80’s to early 90’s Ford 302 possibly an HO with roller cam and that is married up to a large,heavy and over-kill C6 trans that connects to an early 80’s Toyota LSD rear end with Nisan 4 wheel disc brakes conversion. I know….. it’s a lot

But the only thing that really matters here is the 5L engine, C6 trans, 164 tooth flex plate and starter combo, And trying to get them to play nice together. We are pretty sure we bought the wrong flex plate or starter or both, and I’m sure the previous owner did as well because, although it worked for a while, the misaligned parts destroyed each other in a few months time.

Will update soon when we separate the drivetrain


Here are some resent pictures as promised as well as a couple of old pics of when the motor was apart incase it helps.

 

[General karthief]

This may help you get it together to stay,

Ford Flexplate Identification Guide

Ford’s small block and big block engine families have their share of flexplate differences. We’ll show you what to look for in this buyer’s guide.

www.speedwaymotors.com

 

[RJH46]

Thanks. I had that site bookmarked (one of many), but I want to get as many opinions as possible before we commit to parts.

 

[RJH46]

Update:
What we know for sure now is the engine is a 1991 5.0L HO. So it will use a 50 oz flex plate. The C6 uses a 164 tooth 14 1/4" dia flex plate and the torque converter is 4 bolt with a 11 3/8" bolt spread.
My research tells me that Ford did use this 302/C6 combination in some Broncos, E150s, F150s and some F250s from 1985 to 1991, so the correct mating parts should be available.

So far the only flex plate that I've been able to find that ticks all the boxes is the PRW 1830202 from Summit Racing. I contacted PRW and they confirmed these specifications and that it will work with the C6. 164 tooth 14 1/4" outside diameter, 50 oz imbalance weight, 4 bolt torque converter with 11 3/8" bolt spread, 6 bolt crank.

The only starter indexing plate that ticks the boxes is the SUM-700600, also from Summit Racing. It is semi universal in that it can be configured for the 157 or 164 tooth flex plates, and does say it is designed for the automatic transmission. The fact that it can be reconfigured makes me a bit nervous though. Has anyone had any experience with this item?

The new starter that he has is the ACDelco 337-1057 and the fitment chart says it should fit the 302/C6 combination. The starter pinion to mounting flange depth is 5/8" and the diameter of the mounting spigot is 4.089"

The measurement from the block to the ring gear of the existing flex plate is ~3/4", but that may change with the PRW flex plate.

Anyway, that's what we have found so far, but we'd sure appreciate some more opinions.

 

[Flyboy60]

Nice lil truck - that should be a fun ride with a fully functioning 302.

 

[RJH46]

Update:
We finally have things back together with the right combination. We were able to locate a used indexing plate reportedly from a '91 T'Bird. We have the PRW flex plate and the OEM replacement ACDelco starter (second one). The first one was defective in that the circuit to the moveable pole was open and we didn't get positive engagement of the pinion gear. All seems to be good in that department now. Next step is to get the Slayer carb tuned and do what we can in re-curving the MSD distributor. Unfortunately, the builder just chose the mechanical only advance MSD distributor. For now we'll just do the best we can with what we have, but may change it to a Mech/Vac unit later.

 

[nickyb]

That's great ,you got it together dat soon.