quick question, loctite on spark plugs

Mustang92 · May 27, 2005

SMRcalidiv said:
seems like this is directed to what i told you happened to my plug/head, and you seem hellbent on making me out to be arguing with you, so why dont you tell me what you think caused my plug to come out of my head and break the coil in the process???

If it was directed at you I wouldn't beat around the bush I would name you. Please do not put words in my mouth. The reference is to the dozens of cases of heads with the plugs blowing out and you are not the first or last.

This is direct at the question above the 4 threads in the heads are not strong, over tightening them even from the factory is enough to weaken them to the point that cylinder pressure will blow them out over time. The fact that most people found them with the plug still fully threaded into what was the threads from the cylinder head makes it pretty obvious that it had nothing to do with plugs backing out of the cylinder unless they managed to back out then back in after they blew out of the head.

Just because a plug blows out of the head does not mean it was due to it backing out. In fact there is little to nothing to support this other than one person saying that Ford recommends loctiting it but yet he can't provide anything to back this up from Ford.

Mike for the record the posts I have are 95% helping people from this board up till 2 years ago when BS info like this just got too annoying to deal with. What your suggesting here is not only wrong but could cause some serious problems for people.

Bill

SMRcalidiv · May 27, 2005

fair enough, and thanks for saying you would "not beat around the bush and name me," the next time i will know if you are arguing with me and i wont have to "put words in your mouth."

SMRcalidiv · May 27, 2005

03trubluGT said:
HAHAHAHAAHAAHH!

I was reading this post saying to myself "this isn't the same person who has been posting"...

The last sentence was the climax.....

Oh, by the way Ms. "English Major", you didn't check your work before hitting the submit button. I don't think the "I" in "MIke" should be capitalized! Not to mention "correcting's" shouldn't be possessive.

Matt

"my name is Matt, and I too am a tool for correcting someones grammar."
this isnt www.hookedonphonics.com, you get what he's saying and its not like its as bad as you see on here sometimes This is what happens when someone gets pissed and has to resort to petty spelling errors to keep an arguement going.

03trubluGT · May 27, 2005

SMRcalidiv said:
"my name is Matt, and I too am a tool for correcting someones grammar."
this isnt www.hookedonphonics.com, you get what he's saying and its not like its as bad as you see on here sometimes This is what happens when someone gets pissed and has to resort to petty spelling errors to keep an arguement going.

It is not like I got someone to post for me. The person that posted was a "her" and not a "he" you idiot. Look in the mirror, there is the tool.

Matt

Mike97gt · May 27, 2005

Matt!

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your induction to the Fraternal Association of Grammar Patrol (F.A.G. Patrol, sweets!).

You can be proud! You caught me! You are so bad ass! Are you still blasting that Color Me Badd cassette as you cruise around on your nightly F.A.G. Patrols?

You da man! (slang there! no need to alert the local constabulary!)

Thank God for folks like you! Having you prove my point for me makes life that much easier!

Grace

03trubluGT · May 27, 2005

MikeZ28 said:
Matt!

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your induction to the Fraternal Association of Grammar Patrol (F.A.G. Patrol, sweets!).

You can be proud! You caught me! You are so bad ass! Are you still blasting that Color Me Badd cassette as you cruise around on your nightly F.A.G. Patrols?

You da man! (slang there! no need to alert the local constabulary!)

Thank God for folks like you! Having you prove my point for me makes life that much easier!

Grace

Holy Moses, was it easy to push your buttons.

Some people are just no challenge.

Matt

03trubluGT · May 27, 2005

Mustang92 said:
Mike for the record the posts I have are 95% helping people from this board up till 2 years ago when BS info like this just got too annoying to deal with. What your suggesting here is not only wrong but could cause some serious problems for people.

Bill

When I was new here I used this board for tech. Anyone else remember the plenum tests I did?

Now I just come here to look around and try to put people back on track or just harass the obviously ignorant.

If anyone reading my post takes offense to the above sentence, then you fall into that catagory.

Thanks for playing.

Matt

Mike97gt · May 28, 2005

03trubluGT said:
It is not like I got someone to post for me. The person that posted was a "her" and not a "he" you idiot. Look in the mirror, there is the tool.

Matt

hey she saw the post by the guy that was bashing me on my spelling and she was pissed i told her too post if she wanted too. personally i am not too happy with this site right now so i could care less plus it's fun watching her be mean too some of you. i think that guy got what he deserved . if you are goign too hammer somebody on spelling and grammar atleast get it right while you do so.

all i know is this got a little too personal for my liking. all i posted was a practice that was orginally in a dealer message that ford wanted us too locktite the plugs on new lightings.

i wish i could get a copy of that. i went too my manager and he told me there is no way too find a 2-3 year old message broadcast. i originally thought it was a tsb/ssm when i posted but was later corrected by my manager who told me that it was a broadcast message taken off of oasis a few years back.

the service manager at my dealer has all of us use locktite on the mod motors because he was suggested this by our zone feild service engineer and zone rep. we have not had one blow out after this was done so we contiinue doing it.

i brought up the opinion of some in here to my boss today and he told me that we could do the plugs without locktite but they would have too sign a waiver so we are not responsible.

again i would never try too harm somebodys car. and i still do not think the use of locktite will cause the threads too rip out of the head. what i have seen in this topic is a lot of BS reasons on why the plugs do blow out. everybody that works on fords knows the first sign of the plug letting go is they loosen up. at that point there is no head damage just the plug backed out. if you tighten it back too spec it will be fine. the locktite eliminates this backing out of the plug. no backing out= no plugs leaving the head unless you want it too.

I still agree with this method of preventing the plug backing out. and untill a ford powertrain engineer tells us different we will not change our practice of locktite on the plugs of mod motors. and i will not change my mind.

this is nothing personal i can only go by what i have seen. and what i have done with my hands. and too this day no problems with this method is found by me or anybody else i know.

some others on here wanted too make this personal. if you don't liek the idea then don't do it it's that simple. i am not going too show up at your house and put a gun to your head and make you do it.

just remeber even if i am wrong on this ( then a lot more people are wrong too) i did not deserve the personal and professional bashing i took on this. MY employer wants it done this way. they were advised to do this by a credable source. i report that info on here. and now i am getting bashed for it.

ok i know i said this 3 times but i STILL stand by the fact that the locktite WILL prevent the plug from backing out. and i will never back down from that.

if there is damage when removing the plugs that is another matter. and i still doubt any damage would be done. if it did cause damage then i would have bought heads twice now.

Mike97gt · May 28, 2005

Mustang92 said:
If it was directed at you I wouldn't beat around the bush I would name you. Please do not put words in my mouth. The reference is to the dozens of cases of heads with the plugs blowing out and you are not the first or last.

This is direct at the question above the 4 threads in the heads are not strong, over tightening them even from the factory is enough to weaken them to the point that cylinder pressure will blow them out over time. The fact that most people found them with the plug still fully threaded into what was the threads from the cylinder head makes it pretty obvious that it had nothing to do with plugs backing out of the cylinder unless they managed to back out then back in after they blew out of the head.

Just because a plug blows out of the head does not mean it was due to it backing out. In fact there is little to nothing to support this other than one person saying that Ford recommends loctiting it but yet he can't provide anything to back this up from Ford.

Mike for the record the posts I have are 95% helping people from this board up till 2 years ago when BS info like this just got too annoying to deal with. What your suggesting here is not only wrong but could cause some serious problems for people.

Bill

Bill, i got this info right from ford. if you don't think it's a good idea then don't do it. but i personally will trust what ford tells us more than this forum. I am not a engineer i just turn wrenches. maybe it is a bad idea. all i know is i originally heard it from a offical ford boradcast message. we talked about it in the shop for a while and was pissed that we had too pull plugs on brand new lightings and put locktite on them .

WTF would ford have us do that if it was bad, horrible or wrong.

OK this will be the 4th post now that i will say this.

IF YOU HAVE A REASISTIC REASON WITH SOME TECHNICAL PROOF OF WHY IT'S BAD I WILL BE HAPPY TOO TRY AND GET THAT TOO SOMEBODY

it's bad is not going too cut it with me. i want a deeper response than the threads will rip out. i can't go to anybody with that because ford uses locktite on many aluminum threads without a problem during service and i will look like a fool asking that.

bring me proof that this will happen.

tonight alone at work i removed 6 botls from a steering knuckle that was locktited into aluminum threads and they went back in no problems.

how about steering racks. the aluminum threads that the inner tie rods attach too are coated with red locktite from the factory and i have replaced many inner tie rods without damage to the threads.

how about brake caliper bracket attaching bolts. all locktited in from the factory. into aluminum on some cars.

i understand the threads for this plug is a lot smaller but i still don't see how you could tear them free.

and the other reason listed that the loctite itself will cause the plug too blow out is just laughable. even if you used low temp loctite and it melted away all you would loose is the protection the locktite offered.

bill if the plug became fully unthreaded then the damage would not be as severe.

what happens is the plug loosens slightly. and then it starts too rock around in it's threads. some have heard ticking or what sounds like a exhaust leak right before the plug lets go. the coil on top of it bolted in prevents it from unthreading any further so it stays slightly backed out and i think we can all agree that a loose threaded joint is not very strong and will vibrate and tear itself apart.

after awile what happens is the plug rocking around loose in it's threads causes extreme metal fatigue to the threads too the point where cylinder presure will sheer the damaged metal away and blow the plug and coil off.

plugs back out slightly on other motors too but most heads can survive it. but the 5.4 and some early 4.6's had only a few threads and the added stress of not being fully touqed down is too much for the thread to handle.

the use of loctite prevents this backing out of the plug.

some people have found loose plugs with as little as 5k miles on there car.

one of the guys at my work has a harley davidson 5.4 S/C he had 5 plugs loose when he first checked them ( not sure of the mileage) he was very lucky he caught it in time.

a fully secured plug will not blow out of a modular motor head it's when they back out and the threads get damaged thats when they blow out.

COramprat · May 28, 2005

This thing really kind of took off. It's good to have opinions and facts to back up your statements but to make personal attacks I feel was totally uncalled for. You guys that popped in from MD should be ashamed. I thought you guys were bigger than that but I guess I was wrong. Not all of you just the few who smelled blood in the water and decided the time was ripe to take a bite.

Personally I have never had a problem with the plugs in my Stang or my 97 Expy. Never even bothered to retorque after changing the plugs out. That's 135K on the Stang and nearly 165K on the Expedition so I see no need for lock-tite on my vehicles. BUT...if you feel that this will resolve some worry of popping a plug I see no reason not to follow the advise. All of this monkey motion about locktite can cause an adverse effect on the aluminum to steel contact on the threads of the head/plug needs to be backed up by some facts. I just saw opinions that it COULD cause a problem. I don't see it.

The only advise I would give is you don't need much locktite to do the job intended. That way you don't run the risk of accidentally introducing the stuff into your cylinder.

BTW, Mike...good woman you have there. I nearly rolled over with her post...

4.6_02_Black_GT · May 28, 2005

As mentioned many times....most of the screwed up heads come from improper torque and people cross threading their plugs.... So I prefer to you a small amount of anti sieze and a short piece of rubber fuel line to start the plugs and a good torque wrench.... remember only 120 inch pounds(10 ft/pds)!!!. Which not much more than hand tight. And dont get in a hurry.

Get a good small inch-pound wrench....most foot-lb wrenches are way to big for plugs.

No locktite

RandyStinchcomb · May 28, 2005

coramprat said:
This thing really kind of took off. It's good to have opinions and facts to back up your statements but to make personal attacks I feel was totally uncalled for. You guys that popped in from MD should be ashamed. I thought you guys were bigger than that but I guess I was wrong. Not all of you just the few who smelled blood in the water and decided the time was ripe to take a bite.

I didn't come over here because I smelled blood, I came over and posted because I'm so sick-n-tired of all the B/S post that go on the "NET" I stopped in and joined because someone ask me to, wanted my thoughts on this "piss-poor" subject. so I add my thoughts, pleasent or not.

I'm in the parts business(as most of you know) and get a lot of fone calls, e-mails and pm's from people who ask question like what this topic was started about and want to know what to-do? I came over to set the record straight. there was never a TSB or SSM from Ford to-do this and if someone from Ford is telling people todo this, there word is not GOD. field reps and engineers are sent out by Ford to cover Ford's ass when problems arrise. most of them couldn't change a flat tire. I've been work for Ford dealers for over 25 years and never know a field rep to be anything other than a BS-artist.

take the info for what its worth, I've been racing Modulars since 1996 and use nothing but Anti-Size on ALL my sparkplugs(as do ALL of our Techs). also for what its worth my car has the SVO heads(since 2001) on it which have "full threads" un-like the late "NPI" & "PI" 1/2 thread heads. oh and I do not spell to-good either but thats doesn't meen I dont know WTF I'm talking about.

any questions? you can reach me at 410-655-2000 parts ext 5618, I'll be glad to answer & help.

Randy Stinchcomb
Performance Parts Manager @ Liberty Ford of Baltimore

03trubluGT · May 28, 2005

coramprat said:
This thing really kind of took off. It's good to have opinions and facts to back up your statements but to make personal attacks I feel was totally uncalled for. You guys that popped in from MD should be ashamed. I thought you guys were bigger than that but I guess I was wrong. Not all of you just the few who smelled blood in the water and decided the time was ripe to take a bite.

Gee, excuse the attempt to bring some solid tech and experience to StangNet.

It wasn't a witch hunt, just trying to help out before someone ruined their car. Is that a bad thing. If so, in the words of Steve Martin "Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!"

I'll let everyone in on a little secret. If you are trying to convey a message, and you can't TRY TO USE even the tiniest bit of grammar or spelling, then how are you going to sound credible? I'm not going to take someone's advice that sounds like an uneducated cretin.

If you can't see this, then you are either closed minded, or an idiot.

Matt

Pearl02 · May 28, 2005

I was on the Bullitt Archive web page a few minutes ago. It seems Bullitt owners are experiancing the same thing. The key seems to be not to cross tread the spark plugs and don't over tighten them. They suggest using anti-sieze compound but I'm sure lock tite will work better. Pearl02.

jimfitzgerald · May 28, 2005

MikeZ28 said:
Well, Captain Obvious, this thread has also proven that persons with tiny intellects are still alive and well in your neck of the woods! Clear something up for me-when you write "grammer" is that something similar to "grammar"? Further where you live, does "obvously" frequently take the place of "obviously"? Perhaps "grammar" and "obviously" are on holiday in a tropical locale, and these are their fill-ins?

Sadly, many Americans (and English speakers the world over, for that matter!) make many mistakes when writing. This is generally due to lack of time, patience and sometimes caring. Luckily, there are officers ifrom the English Patrol constantly on guard to set things right! Unfortunately, there are also morons like yourself, who, while sitting safely at home in front of a computer, try to prove your manliness by pointing out the grammatical and linguistcal faux-pas (that means "mistakes", smart guy!) of someone whos knowledge of automobiles surpasses your own.

What's most humorous (and satisfying, really!) is that while I would bet my life that ANY and ALL of MIke's vehicular knowledge is first-rate and dead-on correct...you didn't even bother to spell-check your silly attempt at a slam! What, was your momma unavailable to do it for you? Is she on vacation with "grammar" and "obviously"?

Also, check to make confirn the person your correcting's fiance isn't an English Major!

Hey, I never said I could spell. But, I'm not a Ford Master Tech. And, I never said I know anything about cars. That's why I take my car to someone who does. And, I don't think he ever uses Loctite on the spark plugs.

crew_dawg16 · May 28, 2005

I am going to try to bring back some maturity to this thread and get back on subject with a few questions to the ford tech.
1.) When you say:

MikeZ28 said:
ok i know i said this 3 times but i STILL stand by the fact that the locktite WILL prevent the plug from backing out. and i will never back down from that.

does this mean that you have in fact seen a secured spark plug with a rubber boot holding it actually back out and then come out?

2.)

MikeZ28 said:
plugs back out slightly on other motors too but most heads can survive it. but the 5.4 and some early 4.6's had only a few threads and the added stress of not being fully touqed down is too much for the thread to handle.

Here we finally get around to the real problem(s). Problem number 1 being poorly designed heads from Ford. Problem number 2 is improper maintenance.

I am not a Ford tech, but I am a fighter jet crew chief in the Air Force and if there is one thing I do know it's that a threaded fastener, if properly torqued and secured by a rubber boot, will NEVER come loose.

You hit the nail on the head with the "only had a few threads" part.

Keep in mind, I do not care how you do your job because I am in the same boat as you. I get told to do something by my superiors and I have to do it. I am just not blind enough to actually think that the way they tell me to half-ass something is actually the proper way to do it. Rather, it is a quick "fix" in hopes to make the problem disappear.

I can hear the conversation now:

Ford Tech: "We've been having problems with spark plugs ejecting from the engines."
Ford Rep: "Hmm, well they must be coming loose, right?"
Ford Tech: "They still have the threads on them when they come out."
Ford Rep: "Well, they must be coming loose somehow..... I know, we'll Loctite them in!"

*The above conversation never actually took place, the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

In a nutshell, what Ford is doing is crap and you should know better. If a plug pops out of a head it is not because the installer didn't use Loctite.

Joel's98GT · May 28, 2005

SilverGTV8 said:
NO LOCKTITE!!!!!!

A tiny big of antiseize on cold heads and everything should be good.

werd, anti-sieze.

my_03GT · May 28, 2005

crew_dawg16 said:
I am going to try to bring back some maturity to this thread and get back on subject with a few questions to the ford tech.
1.) When you say:
does this mean that you have in fact seen a secured spark plug with a rubber boot holding it actually back out and then come out?

2.)
Here we finally get around to the real problem(s). Problem number 1 being poorly designed heads from Ford. Problem number 2 is improper maintenance.

I am not a Ford tech, but I am a fighter jet crew chief in the Air Force and if there is one thing I do know it's that a threaded fastener, if properly torqued and secured by a rubber boot, will NEVER come loose.

You hit the nail on the head with the "only had a few threads" part.

Keep in mind, I do not care how you do your job because I am in the same boat as you. I get told to do something by my superiors and I have to do it. I am just not blind enough to actually think that the way they tell me to half-ass something is actually the proper way to do it. Rather, it is a quick "fix" in hopes to make the problem disappear.

I can hear the conversation now:

Ford Tech: "We've been having problems with spark plugs ejecting from the engines."
Ford Rep: "Hmm, well they must be coming loose, right?"
Ford Tech: "They still have the threads on them when they come out."
Ford Rep: "Well, they must be coming loose somehow..... I know, we'll Loctite them in!"

*The above conversation never actually took place, the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

In a nutshell, what Ford is doing is crap and you should know better. If a plug pops out of a head it is not because the installer didn't use Loctite.

Bomber crew chief here and I could not agree more with you post: especially the last paragraph with the Ford Rep and Tech!

COramprat · May 28, 2005

Actually, Randy and Bill...you maintained the dignity I expected. It was some "others" that reduced themselves to name calling and attacking character.

Mike was only trying to pass along info that he is privy too as a Ford Tech. His ability or knowledge shouldn't be attacked by people who have NEVER met him. Those people are the ones I was refering to.

jimfitzgerald · May 28, 2005

People from MD came over here to tell you guys you were getting some bad advice from Mike, regardless if it came from Ford or not. Some of you still don't seem to understand that Ford is just trying to save themselves some warranty money. You don't have to know Mike personally to know his advice, in this case, is not good. That's not a personal attack on anyone. As far as correcting his spelling and grammar, that was meant to be funny, but as someone pointed out, it also reflects on a person's credibility. You guys go ahead and use loctite if you want. Weld the suckers in for all I care.

quick question, loctite on spark plugs

Mustang92

SN's #1 1%er

SMRcalidiv

SMRcalidiv

03trubluGT

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Mike97gt

it doe snot

03trubluGT

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03trubluGT

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Mike97gt

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Mike97gt

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COramprat

...I can take it. I think.

4.6_02_Black_GT

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COramprat

...I can take it. I think.

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