TERMI Or S197 gt

dro · Jan 30, 2009

mustanglou7 said:
Thank you guys for all your opinions. I still just cant make up my mind. I have yet not even seen a gt with bolt-ons come close to what damage an 03-04 cobra can do. i do plan on going down to the block eventually on which car i get and work my way threw valvetrain,heads,crank,forged internals ect. All that gets you into the high nines mid tens. I just dont no what in the end will be more worth it. There both totally different animals if you hook them up with the rite setupp. I def wanna go kenne bell 2.8 big bore and hopefully run around 18 pounds of boost. I know the cobra could handle it but what about the gt.

YouTube - 2005 Mustang GT S197 12 second 1/4 mile pass

YouTube - 2006 Mustang GT 1/4 mile run: 12.6 @ 108

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-Nb2VmiGU(this one is spraying)

YouTube - 12 sec 06 Mustang GT

Goes back to the whole chassis thing... The 197 is a hell of a better launcher than previous platforms...

ThePumpkin · Jan 30, 2009

Like I said, they are both nice cars... The videos in the previous post show how badass the GT can get. Either way, you'll be smoking most cars out there. BUT, if your planning on redoing that much of the engine, I would go with the Cobra just based off the way it looks. Personally, I think the terminator is the best looking Mustang one can buy... but thats just matter of opinion. If your thinking about redoing that much of the engine, I would just get the vehicle you think has better curb appeal.
Although I will say that the Cobra is more built to handle what your looking for. The GT is well built, but the Cobra is a little stronger.

ThePumpkin · Jan 30, 2009

dro said:
Goes back to the whole chassis thing... The 197 is a hell of a better launcher than previous platforms...

Thats another good point.

mustanglou7 · Jan 31, 2009

I think as of now im leaning towards the s197. Ive been watching many videos on youtube and comparing the termi and gt and I kinda like the body more on the gt. The interior is nicer and like you said about the chassis it will heelp provide a throwing your self in the seat launch. THank you guys for your help . I will tell you guys when i find the s197 I Want

o0Dan0o · Jan 31, 2009

NastyStang113 said:
I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree. I know that both of them are on nearly the same chassis but I'd say it's a little bit of a redesign to warrant a new name.

The chassis wasn't redesigned for the "new edge." The only real difference is that the cobra's got an IRS, but that IRS bolted up to the same mounting locations as the stick axle, thus why they are a direct swap. That's also why the IRS sucked, designing something to work where an already horribly designed stick axle lived is going to produce a bad setup.

The change between 98 and 99 was almost purely cosmetic, the other main difference was the PI heads in the GTs.

As for which to get, if you're going to go down to the block than the GT is the technologically better car, from a chassis/suspension standpoint, as has been stated repeatedly. That, however, can be correct, companies like maximum motorsports and griggs racing can set either car up to perform about the same.

I would buy the one you like better. In the end, I think it will cost close to the same to make each car perform to the same basic level. Is it a daily driver or drag mule? If it's a mule I'd buy a 05 V6 just for the platform and throw whatever engine in there you want.
Dan

91frppgt · Jan 31, 2009

tag4car said:
Everyone?

Trust me, that little snake on the fender draws attention wherever it goes, Doesn't need factory stripes IMO. The sound can't be duplicated, all someone needs to see is the corner of the front end coming around towards them and they know immediately what's there and what it's capable of doing, I'm in a city pushing 1 million people in the metro area and you don't see a termi every day. To see more than three you have to be at a meet or show.
Plus for under 1k you can be a 10.9 car

mod list please the 1k > 10.9 car.

91frppgt · Jan 31, 2009

bang for the buck, 03-04 cobra all the way. they sound badass, 6 spd, IRS...
hard part is, to find one that hasn't been beat to ****.

yes a few bolt ons and the new s-197's run 12's (if driven right) but a ported blower 03-04 cobra with supporting mods is low 11's, high 10's.

i'm kicking myself for not getting a 03-04 cobra, but i'm happy with what I got.

NastyStang113 · Jan 31, 2009

The IRS is actually a downside ... How many people do you see switching to IRS in a S197? How many people do you see switching to a live rear axle in the 03-04 Cobras ... The Griggs Racing suspension kit can pull consistent 1.30+ Gs. I think I'll put up with this live axle ..

Gearbanger 101 · Jan 31, 2009

NastyStang113 said:
The IRS is actually a downside ... How many people do you see switching to IRS in a S197? How many people do you see switching to a live rear axle in the 03-04 Cobras ... The Griggs Racing suspension kit can pull consistent 1.30+ Gs. I think I'll put up with this live axle ..

Oh man.....first you refuse to recognize an ’03-’04 Cobra as an SN95 car and now this?!?

People switch from IRS to solid axle with the Cobra's for Drag racing purposes, not for autocross. The solid axle systems are lighter and can be built stronger to handle the torque that some of these modified Cobra's are putting out. Otherwise, the IRS is the superior autocross rear-end, I don't care what Griggs Racing live axle set ups pull on the skid pad. The contact patch with the tires remains flat and consistent with IRS with changing road surfaces and grades. Something that it IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish with a solid axle rear end. Its not internet myth, its not magic, its just simple geometry! This is coming from a person with experience. My car weighs almost 4,200lbs with driver and I easily out handles most solid axle mustangs weighing several hundred pounds less with my IRS equipped Cougar.

Ford chose not to install the IRS in the S197 platform for two reasons. One, because most owners who voiced their opinions choose to drag race their Mustangs than autocross them and two because a solid axle rear end is considerably cheaper to produce....keeping the bean counters happy and the over all cost down on the vehicle.

ThePumpkin · Jan 31, 2009

91frppgt said:
mod list please the 1k > 10.9 car.

I think he meant 10K.
The Kenne bell hes thinking of getting (big bore 2.6H or 2.8H) are good for 655hp alone... 26psi MAX and are good for low elevens or high tens.
But they are sure as hell well over 1k...

Or, theres the 2.8 MAMMOTH.
Its good for a double in hp numbers over stock. Around 800hp. Although they recommend a fuel pump upgrade at 700hp... and "boost-a-pump" at 450hp. and some exhaust upgrade..like bigger cat-back or something.

The cheapest out of those three is $5400
...
Thats almost as much as I bought my Mustang for.
Sheesh.
I think he left out a zero in his price tag. He should become a Kenne Bell salesman... I think i'll get my superchargers from him

91frppgt · Jan 31, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
Oh man.....first you refuse to recognize an ’03-’04 Cobra as an SN95 car and now this?!?

People switch from IRS to solid axle with the Cobra's for Drag racing purposes, not for autocross. The solid axle systems are lighter and can be built stronger to handle the torque that some of these modified Cobra's are putting out. Otherwise, the IRS is the superior autocross rear-end, I don't care what Griggs Racing live axle set ups pull on the skid pad. The contact patch with the tires remains flat and consistent with IRS with changing road surfaces and grades. Something that it IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish with a solid axle rear end. Its not internet myth, its not magic, its just simple geometry! This is coming from a person with experience. My car weighs almost 4,200lbs with driver and I easily out handles most solid axle mustangs weighing several hundred pounds less with my IRS equipped Cougar.

Ford chose not to install the IRS in the S197 platform for two reasons. One, because most owners who voiced their opinions choose to drag race their Mustangs than autocross them and two because a solid axle rear end is considerably cheaper to produce....keeping the bean counters happy and the over all cost down on the vehicle.

agreed

actually the IRS is not a "downside"
I've rode in several cobras, they ride great, and could very easily outhandle my car, and i have alot of suspension mods. One of my buddys pulls 1.57's on stock half shafts with a few upgrades to the IRS.

NastyStang113 · Jan 31, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
*Snip* Ford chose not to install the IRS in the S197 platform for two reasons. One, because most owners who voiced their opinions choose to drag race their Mustangs than autocross them. *Snip*

What were you saying again?

I'm not saying that IRS isn't good for autocross but most people don't buy their Mustangs to turn them into autocross cars. I'm saying that the live axle can do great with the right mods. Do you think the S197 or NEW EDGE platform is a good base vehicle for autocross? I don't. Most people, like you just said, use Mustangs to drag race. So like I said, it's a downfall for these people. The 8.8" can handle plenty of power and abuse so it's a good starting point. How many 03-04 Cobras break half shafts at the strip? Tons of them. How many of them switch to 8.8" or 9" rear ends? Tons of them. Personally, I think the benefits of the live axle in the S917 outweighs the cons for my needs, and apparently I'm not the only one. Opinions are like *******s, everyone has them and think theirs doesn't stink though.

tag4car · Jan 31, 2009

91frppgt said:
mod list please the 1k > 10.9 car.

YouTube - 2003 mustang cobra making a 10.99 pass
A Port and pulley are under $1k, Good driver powershifting?, Invaluable

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 1, 2009

NastyStang113 said:
What were you saying again?

I'm not saying that IRS isn't good for autocross but most people don't buy their Mustangs to turn them into autocross cars. I'm saying that the live axle can do great with the right mods. Do you think the S197 or NEW EDGE platform is a good base vehicle for autocross? I don't. Most people, like you just said, use Mustangs to drag race. So like I said, it's a downfall for these people. The 8.8" can handle plenty of power and abuse so it's a good starting point. How many 03-04 Cobras break half shafts at the strip? Tons of them. How many of them switch to 8.8" or 9" rear ends? Tons of them. Personally, I think the benefits of the live axle in the S917 outweighs the cons for my needs, and apparently I'm not the only one. Opinions are like *******s, everyone has them and think theirs doesn't stink though.

Perhaps you should be a little more specific when you drop a blanketed statement like the IRS rear-end being a "downside" to the rest of the car. Downside to hard core drag racers, sure....but the truth of the matter is, that 90% of the Cobra owners out there aren't making the kind of horsepower figures that snap half shafts off at the strip. Most owners never take their mods beyond the traditional pulley, CAI, exhaust and tune level. Most owners run their cars on the street and at street level, the IRS is still the better set up of the two. They provide flatter cornering, as well as a much, much nicer ride.

You may see the odd guy swap a solid axle into a Cobra to run the drag strip, but you NEVER see a Cobra owner swap out the IRS for a solid axle to run the road course.

Like I said.....the main reason for not switching out the IRS was keeping the bean counters happy (I do like how you conveniently left that part out when you quoted me though) in order to offer the ’05-up S197 cars at a lesser price tag. Thier unpopularity with the drag race crowd came in a farrrr distant second.

NastyStang113 · Feb 1, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
Perhaps you should be a little more specific when you drop a blanketed statement like the IRS rear-end being a "downside" to the rest of the car.

Perhaps you should realize other people have their own opinions. I see you argueing with a lot of people and it's always the same thing. I sense this mentality that it's your way or the highway. I can respect your opinion and I don't have to 'down' it. I don't need your approval before making a blanket statement. This place is all about opinions and experiences, isn't it?

Gearbanger 101 said:
Downside to hard core drag racers, sure....but the truth of the matter is, that 90% of the Cobra owners out there aren't making the kind of horsepower figures that snap half shafts off at the strip. Most owners never take their mods beyond the traditional pulley, CAI, exhaust and tune level

Do you have any links to back up that 90% claim? I'm not so sure where you got that. I've seen plenty of people break half shafts including guys with a pulley, cai, exhaust, tune, especially with a set of sticky tires. Forget it if they've got an upgraded blower or turbos.

Gearbanger 101 said:
Most owners run their cars on the street and at street level, the IRS is still the better set up of the two. They provide flatter cornering, as well as a much, much nicer ride.

Personally, I think the majority of Cobra owners are enthusiasts. It's pretty hard to find a 03-04 Cobra around here with zero mods. Irregardless, if you think most owners only use their cars on the street. Wouldn't that mean they don't need IRS for it's autocross capabilities? It's not like they are going to be autocrossing on public roads, right? It goes both ways. The LRA would do just fine for them.

Gearbanger 101 said:
You may see the odd guy swap a solid axle into a Cobra to run the drag strip, but you NEVER see a Cobra owner swap out the IRS for a solid axle to run the road course.

Orlando Speedworld has plenty of guys with 03-04 Cobras with LRA swaps. I don't know about in Canada though so I'll take your word for it. I never disputed the fact that no autocross racer is going to switch out the IRS for a LRA. There are a lot of drag racers that will swap out the IRS for a LRA though. Don't you agree?

Gearbanger 101 said:
Like I said.....the main reason for not switching out the IRS was keeping the bean counters happy (I do like how you conveniently left that part out when you quoted me though) in order to offer the ’05-up S197 cars at a lesser price tag. Thier unpopularity with the drag race crowd came in a farrrr distant second.

No, that's not exactly what you said. This is what you said ...

Ford chose not to install the IRS in the S197 platform for two reasons. One, because most owners who voiced their opinions choose to drag race their Mustangs than autocross them and two because a solid axle rear end is considerably cheaper to produce....keeping the bean counters happy and the over all cost down on the vehicle.

Did you not just say that the number one reason was because owners voiced their opinions and wanted to drag race their Mustangs. I even posted "snip" in my quote so people would know that's wasn't the only thing you said. I felt that since it was in your opinion the number one reason for building the S197 with a LRA I'd comment on it. I agree with it, too.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this so we might be doing circles here.

o0Dan0o · Feb 1, 2009

The Cobra IRS is not a very good example of a well designed suspension. The main reason for this, or so I have been told as I don't know that much about it, is that it was designed to attach to the stock solid axle mounting locations. This, apparently, forced the engineers to make several less than desirable compromises. Both Maximum Motorsports and Griggs Racing have told me that unless someone trades me even for the IRS it's simply not worth it, this was for my 96 GT.

Ford let the penny pinchers do some engineering, and it was the Cobra IRS that paid the price. Your IRS, Gearbanger, is likely much better since it and the chassis were designed together as an IRS platform from the beginning.
Dan

tag4car · Feb 1, 2009

NastyStang113 said:
Personally, I think the majority of Cobra owners are enthusiasts. It's pretty hard to find a 03-04 Cobra around here with zero mods. Irregardless, if you think most owners only use their cars on the street. Wouldn't that mean they don't need IRS for it's autocross capabilities? It's not like they are going to be autocrossing on public roads, right? It goes both ways. The LRA would do just fine for them.

I agree with that

91frppgt · Feb 1, 2009

tag4car said:
YouTube - 2003 mustang cobra making a 10.99 pass
A Port and pulley are under $1k, Good driver powershifting?, Invaluable

yes a pully and port is under $1k. but you need supporting mods to go along with that.

the car on the youtube video has much more than $1k invested in it.

dro · Feb 3, 2009

Let me get one thing clear in this thread. The cobra owners who swap to solid axles are the ones who have built rears using slicks. It is pure stupid to launch ANY irs car on slicks. With that being said, the guys who swap out their rear ends are real drag race enthusiests... You can get an 03/04 into the 11s and 12's easy with drag radials and without swapping out the half shafts for the solid. Granted it takes a decent driver but its been done and can be done.

To go along with the guys who swap out their IRS for solid and their cobra only sees casual drag time once a month, thats pure stupidity and a waste of money.

As far as the s197 not having IRS, does it really need it? I mean come on, if you have driven a sn95 solid rear car and the 197 i think the difference in handling is night and day. I think a 1 legged old woman can tell the difference.

bhuff30 · Feb 3, 2009

It is interesting the direction that this topic has taken.

I've driven both an S197 and an 04 cobra. I like the smoothness and refinement of the S197. It has a much better chassis and suspension feel. All around it is just a tighter car.

To me, the cobra felt like just another SN95 with quite a bit of power. It still had small squeeks and rattles and of course no traction. The S197 is simply the superior chassis and of course better traction.

On the other hand, the cobra has a strong drivetrain to take the abuse of 500+hp. The S197 has weak cast pistons and rods, but they'll still take the abuse of a KB at lower boost levels no problem. It just depends on your power goal and your intention for the car.

There is a S197 at my local track with a KB.. he was running low 12s all season long. Pretty bad car.

As for my recommendation... if you are looking for a car to drive everyday that doesn't have rediculous power (less than 500hp), the S197 would be a great choice. If you are looking for a beast that puts fear in the hearts of anyone, then you should choose the cobra.

TERMI Or S197 gt

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