The best of the best. CAI + Tune !?

2 MPH difference in the 1/4 mile is a pretty huge gap! I know the next time I run my car, I'm going to set the rev limiter to 6200 RPM. I'm wondering if I'm losing time with it set to 6800 RPM. I know trapping just over 104 MPH was great!!!!!

I saw the WMS on someone's Mustang and didn't know who made it. I came here hoping to describe it so maybe someone could tall me where to find it and there it was. Thanks

xtweakerx said:

um, u went a lot faster due to you're 4.10 gears

3.31 gears even 3:55's are not that gr8 in these heavy cars.

I look forward to getting my cai + tune and then gears down the road.

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You are absolutely correct - the factory 3.31 or 3.55 gears suck. S197's need more gear to overcome the weight. Absolute best bang for the buck! I have a 3,400-3,600 rpm Fuddle Racing stall converter being installed this week in my car. I'm told this is good for about 1/2 second improvement in the 1/4 mile. If that's true, that'll be another "best bang for the buck" for the automatic GT crowd.

The handheld tuners are awesome (Diablo, SCT, etc.). They all tend to offer 20-30 hp gains in premium fuel tunes.

The CAI's just do not seem to be worth the money for the couple of horsepower you get - same with axle-back exhausts. However, a good CAI and exhaust would help a bunch after you have serious upgrades done (bigger cams, ported heads, forced induction of some sort, etc.). For a basically stock S197 GT, though, CAI's and exhaust do little, if anything, other than look/sound cool.

Bones187 said:

I think we all know here that CAI is a misnomer. of course there is no true cold air coming in with the new box, but is pulling in more air. Ask the people who try and run CAI alone without tune. Car runs too lean because of increased air flow without increasing fuel. Also he is talking about a S197 stang not a thunderbird or 5.0. These cars are completely redesigned over previous stangs so cannot compare older(pre 05) with new stangs. Well that's my opinion. Search the site you'll come acroos people who tried without tuner and car will get check engine light. That tells me something is wrong and it is the increased air flow. Most tunes alone will give 15-20 rwhp but adding cai will usually get you closer to 30 hp at wheels. Well worth it IMO

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Look my 5.0 in my TBird is not the old pushrod, it is Modular 2V. I referred to it to show how stupid MM&FF is. If I listened to the advice they gave me, I would fore sure have 20 RWHP less than what I have and I would need a hell of a lot more parts to get to that 20 RWHP less. Everything else I said in that reply regarded 05+ Mustangs. I have a 2005 Mustang GT as well as the 96 TBird.

Now you know what really causes those CAI's to run lean. The MAF transfer function is no longer the same as it was in stock form, not because there is more air flowing. Most CAI's increase the size of the MAF sampling tube and that throws off the MAF. Because it is not reading correctly, the car is running lean. That is the sole reason you need a tune, to correct the MAF transfer function because of the large sampling tube.

Further proof of what I am saying. When Steeda first came out with their CAI, they started with a 80 or 85mm Tube, can't remember which. Soon after than, they increased to 90mm, forget to tell DiabloSport. Everybody who bought combos of the Steeda CAI and DiabloSport tuner for that CAI soon after that had a Check engine light and lean issues because of that. For awhile after that, you needed to specify if you had the smaller or larger Steeda CAI to get the right tuner. Steeda only produces the larger CAI now and it was a short run of the smaller one.

Most of the CAI's that do not require a tune, do not enlarge the MAF sampling tube. The MAF transfer function remains the same and does not require a tune. Just because it requires a retune does not mean it is working better than the stock setup.

xtweakerx said:

Alright, lets hear everyones opinion on what is the best of the best CAI and TUNE out there.


Some say C&L + Xcal2

some say Steeda + Xcal2


Lets hear it, i think im finnally going to upgrade from stock!

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I don't have either one of these but based upon research and anecdotal evidence, here are my recommendations:

CAI: C&L
Tune: Bamachips 93 Octane

CAIs do make a difference, about a tenth of a second based upon info I have gotten from people who run 2005+ Mustangs at my track. This being said, there probably isn't a huge performance increase at the track with any certain type of CAI so go the cheapest route.

As far a performance tunes, I have Superchips 91 Octane. It is easy to program and un-install but probably not as aggressive of a tune as others. However, this may not be a bad thing in the end. My best run to date is 13.682 and my best runs at each session all density altitude correct to 13.4s. This is about what I expected based upon manufacturer claims for the performance mods to my car.

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Mustangs, but after reading this thread, I am starting to think a CAI is a waste of my money. I am about to get a JLT CAI and SCT tuner from Brenspeed, but should I even waste my money on a CAI??? I'll also be installing 4.10s at the same time.... Any advise?

Nick

Argh... A guy asks a simple questions and gets vultured? Expressing ones opinion is great and encouraged. To continue to argue ones point is pretty much pointless.

I have a C&L. Had one on my V6. While I did not do this on my GT, I did load a tune with the stock system and then with the C&L. There was a marked difference. The engine spooled up quicker, it pulled stronger and sounded cooler. While there are many arguments over CAI vs tune, the combination from a good tumer will get you the best gains. Whether it is worth it is a personal decision that nobody can make for you. Hearing an opinion once is great. Twice is annoying.

I have received great advice from these boards and some advice based on personal slants. Once you sift thought you will find that the vast majority of folks on the boards use a combination of tuner and CAI. There are enough posts to suggest that Bama, Brenspeed and others are top notch tuners and the product they sell and support is well tested. This may be my opinion but you will find that this is the general concensus.....

Be kind to those who ask for advice, share your opinions and then stop beating it to death.

PoopDawg said:

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Mustangs, but after reading this thread, I am starting to think a CAI is a waste of my money. I am about to get a JLT CAI and SCT tuner from Brenspeed, but should I even waste my money on a CAI??? I'll also be installing 4.10s at the same time.... Any advise?

Nick

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My only comment is to check out other boards and threads. Never rely on a few comments to sway your opinion. To read a dozen comments from people with a variety of experience and opinion may be doing yourself a disservice. Take me for example, what are my credentials to even offer this feedback?

i have the jlt & sct tune from brenspeed.glad i did it. more power and the jlt looks cool-i got it painted in the body color, in my case redfire. brenspeed's service was great.

PoopDawg said:

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Mustangs, but after reading this thread, I am starting to think a CAI is a waste of my money. I am about to get a JLT CAI and SCT tuner from Brenspeed, but should I even waste my money on a CAI??? I'll also be installing 4.10s at the same time.... Any advise?

Nick

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I consider pretty knowledgeable on the 96+ Ford Modular V8s. Personally, I wouldn't waste the money on the CAI unless you like the looks of it. I don't have any personal experience with a CAI on the 05+ Mustangs other than test fitting a C&L CAI on my car.

I do know of an 05 Mustang GT that lost a piston due to a very lean condition from his Steeda CAI and DiabloSport Predator tuner. He was one of the unlucky ones who got the big CAI and the tuner for the small one. I do know that he received a new CAI/Predator combo from Steeda. I do know that his car is faster in the 1/4 with an off-the-shelf X-Cal 2 and stock airbox than it was with the new CAI/Predator combo.

Previously in this thread I did share what I do know from my own personal experience. Since I really don't care how people spend their money and what not. This is the last CAI thread I ever take part in at Stangnet. I am not going to waste my time trying to help and educate you guys.

I went with the C&L kit that included the DiabloSport Preditor tuner.

It does change the "sound" of the engine, as the black breather box is a bit more quiet.

TGJ said:

I consider pretty knowledgeable on the 96+ Ford Modular V8s. Personally, I wouldn't waste the money on the CAI unless you like the looks of it. I don't have any personal experience with a CAI on the 05+ Mustangs other than test fitting a C&L CAI on my car.

I do know of an 05 Mustang GT that lost a piston due to a very lean condition from his Steeda CAI and DiabloSport Predator tuner. He was one of the unlucky ones who got the big CAI and the tuner for the small one. I do know that he received a new CAI/Predator combo from Steeda. I do know that his car is faster in the 1/4 with an off-the-shelf X-Cal 2 and stock airbox than it was with the new CAI/Predator combo.

Previously in this thread I did share what I do know from my own personal experience. Since I really don't care how people spend their money and what not. This is the last CAI thread I ever take part in at Stangnet. I am not going to waste my time trying to help and educate you guys.

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I see that I may have been a tad strong in my rant. I had not intended to offend and apologize if I did. Your experience is greater than mine and all I was trying to convey was that decisions should not be made without thorough research.

I had a run of bad info on some photography boards and saw somebody spend a fortune after getting some bad advice. Your advice was based on actual experience so it is of great value to the members on the board.

Ok, I think now I will be going with an SCT XCAL II, 4.10s, and an offroad X pipe.

harrison said:

I had a run of bad info on some photography boards and saw somebody spend a fortune after getting some bad advice. Your advice was based on actual experience so it is of great value to the members on the board.

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Exactly why I questioned the value of a CAI for my car. I didn't want to spend a fortune (even if just a few hundred $'s) on a product that was unproven. There are a lot of goodies available in the aftermarket. Much of it is "snake oil" or "eye candy" that does little to actually improve performance.

A lot of the aftermarket goodies are subjective in their benefit, though. A CAI isn't hurting performance vs stock in most cases, and if it looks cool then it may be worth buying on looks alone. Same is true of axle-back exhaust systems. While they don't really add any performance, they do change the sound to many peoples' likings, which in itself is enough reason to buy them.

For anyone out there looking for a CAI for the performance gains, get a tuner and take it to the track to see if it actually gives you any real improvements. If it does improve your car's performance, tell the world so that we can all be better informed. If it does not, then don't pretend it did so that you don't feel foolish for buying a worthless mod for your car (oh yeah, and tell the world so that others don't get suckered into buying something that doesn't work as advertised).

In summary, a CAI is of little or no benefit to an otherwise stock S197 GT. A modded engine that requires more air (bigger cams, ported heads, forced induction, etc.) can benefit a lot from the extra air that a CAI (and upgraded exhaust) can provide.

Five Oh Brian said:

Exactly why I questioned the value of a CAI for my car. I didn't want to spend a fortune (even if just a few hundred $'s) on a product that was unproven. There are a lot of goodies available in the aftermarket. Much of it is "snake oil" or "eye candy" that does little to actually improve performance.

A lot of the aftermarket goodies are subjective in their benefit, though. A CAI isn't hurting performance vs stock in most cases, and if it looks cool then it may be worth buying on looks alone. Same is true of axle-back exhaust systems. While they don't really add any performance, they do change the sound to many peoples' likings, which in itself is enough reason to buy them.

For anyone out there looking for a CAI for the performance gains, get a tuner and take it to the track to see if it actually gives you any real improvements. If it does improve your car's performance, tell the world so that we can all be better informed. If it does not, then don't pretend it did so that you don't feel foolish for buying a worthless mod for your car (oh yeah, and tell the world so that others don't get suckered into buying something that doesn't work as advertised).

In summary, a CAI is of little or no benefit to an otherwise stock S197 GT. A modded engine that requires more air (bigger cams, ported heads, forced induction, etc.) can benefit a lot from the extra air that a CAI (and upgraded exhaust) can provide.

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This is my plan next time I go to the track:

- Put 91 Octane fuel in the car and make a few passes on the stock tune.
- Install my X-Cal 2 and make a few passes on the 87 Octane tune.
- Change the tune to the 91 Octane tune and make a few passes.
- Analyse and post the data.

I agree with you that exhaust will help on a modified car, disagree with you on the intake side of it. My 96 TBird is why I disagree.

harrison said:

I see that I may have been a tad strong in my rant. I had not intended to offend and apologize if I did. Your experience is greater than mine and all I was trying to convey was that decisions should not be made without thorough research.

I had a run of bad info on some photography boards and saw somebody spend a fortune after getting some bad advice. Your advice was based on actual experience so it is of great value to the members on the board.

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You are correct, research is the best thing to do. Asking questions on forum boards is doing that research but it not necessarily enough. Ask the question on multiple boards and analyse the data you get.

When you are researching performance parts like CAI's think about a few very important questions. People will argue that more air equals more power in car engine. They are not technically wrong but not correct either. For example if your air filter/induction tube flows 700 CFM, your intake manifold flows 650 CFM and your heads flow and your heads flow 240 CFM on the intake side. How is adding an air filter that flows 1000 CFM going to help you? It won't as it is not changing the velocity of the air and is not correcting a restriction. Your largest restriction is your heads. Putting better breathing heads *should* make more power but this is not always the case. There is ways to mess up the heads even though they flow more air.

I already pointed out earlier about the location of the CAI's. Question to be asking is how is the CAI different in gathering air compared to the stock box? How is it an improvement over the stock setup?

How are the gains being measured from where you are getting them from. People who are seeing gains in the 1/4, are the times from the same track same day or are they comparisons from different days? Slight weather differences can be the reason a car sees a gain or loss so if the info is corrected or run on the same day, roughly the same time, that data is better to go off than those that are comparing data from different days that are not corrected.

Where is the info you are looking at coming from? Is it possible the data may be misleading? For example a TV show or magazine article. It is very possible that the stock dyno run is done at the hottest point of the day, the CAI/Tuner dyno run is done at night and the numbers are not corrected. There are other tricks that can be done, this is just another example. How is the test done, the comparison most refer to for CAI's used a tuner as well. Is it possible the gains are coming from the supporting mods?

Ideas that these parts require a retune so it must be working better than stock. Again not necessarily true. I explained that earlier. Also note that many CAI's made for the 4.6 2V and 4V crowd also required retuning of the EEC. I know that most of the CAI's for the 96 - 98 Mustang GT 2V will work on a 96 - 97 4.6 2V TBird. Using a CAI on a TBird required a retune. So this is not something new that applies to just the 4.6 3V crowd.

I am not telling you not to buy a CAI. If there is a CAI you like, buy it. However do not be lead to believe it is doing miracles and adding power to your car. I do believe and from what I have seen, a CAI is more of an appearance mod than it is a performance mod. I haven't seen anything substantive to change my thoughts on that regarding most CAI's for the 05+ Mustang. I pointed out which one I think does show some promise.

I run SLP LM's on my 05 GT. I bought them strictly for the sound and nothing else. If there was a HP gain, yay or if there was a HP loss, oh well, I like the sound of them. That is why they are on my car.

The other 05 GT that I referred with the Predator/Steeda CAI and X-Cal 2 was run at the same track, the same day. In case anybody was wondering.

I am telling anybody to research the parts they want. Proper research will lead to you buying parts that will satisfy your what you are looking to achieve.

Interesting topic… I have gone back and forth on this upgrade myself which is why I still run the factory air box and no tune.

This does lead to a question though…

If adding a CAI requires a turn because the CAI alone causes the engine to run in a lean condition and a tuner corrects this… does Brent or Doug offer a custom tune through communication by phone or email with a tuner and stock air box that keeps the engine from running in a too rich or too lean condition?

I understand that given the two… a rich condition is better than a lean one but if all the ordered tunes are setup for a CAI upgrade will the tune be okay to run the engine under hard aggressive conditions (1/4 mile) with the factory air box?

281Ponies said:

I understand that given the two… a rich condition is better than a lean one but if all the ordered tunes are setup for a CAI upgrade will the tune be okay to run the engine under hard aggressive conditions (1/4 mile) with the factory air box?

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My Diablo tuner's canned tunes that came with it (87 octane, 89 octane, 91 octane, and firm shifting) all are set for the factory airbox. I bought my tuner from www.rpmoutlet.com. They also included custom tunes for many popular aftermarket goodies (a long list of CAI's, superchargers, exhaust, etc.) and they offer free custom tunes that can be written for a very specific combo and emailed to the customer (or tuning shop).

My car is bone stock, other than 4.10 gears. I put in the 87 octane tune, and it fixed the drive-by-wire throttle lag and seat-of-the-pants was noticably improved - more than I was expecting. Fueled up with 92 octane (best we have around here other than at the track) and after a few tanks of 92, put in the 93 octane tune. Wow. Much firmer shifting, much harder pull in each gear, etc. Then, put in the firm shifting program (I have the automatic trans) which also is set for 93 octane. Holy wow! Neck-snapping shifts (too hard for daily driving, but great at the track) via super high line pressure in the trans. I have friends with bone stock Mustangs that should be faster than mine that they've allowed me to drive. A 2007 Saleen Parnelli Jones 400hp Mustang, a 2006 Shelby GT-H rental car, a 2007 Shelby GT with manual trans. None of these feel any faster than mine, or even feel slower (the GT-H). The PJ should take my car at the track (it had better with 400hp and a $63K price tag), but on the street I think I could hang close to him or maybe take him in the first 1/8 mile.

TGJ makes a very good point about finding the restriction in the airflow equation. I believe that Ford really did a great job making the factory airbox flow. Makes me want to put off buying a CAI and upgraded exhaust until I've created a need for more airflow via bigger cams (coming sometime later this year). The bigger cams (maybe some headwork) will make a CAI necessary. For now, though, I'm working on improving driveline efficiency (the 4.10 gears are already in, and a 3,500 rpm lock-up stall converter goes in tomorrow). Lightweight, one-piece driveshaft will follow that, along with lightweight wheels (to reduce unsprung weight and rotational mass).