i agree with that. most people say that adding an electric fan they felt more than when they added a cat-back. i vote for 280hp+Michael Yount said:
think they'll be worth 15 rwhp??
- Thread starter noslow5_0
- Start date
I didn't see any mention of porting done on the Windsor Jr. heads, or the lower GT40 Intake manifold. Doing some port matching, mild porting with cleanup will increase your power by 20hp+.
The pulleys and electric fan should gain you roughly 10hp, but you will have a hard time keeping the car cool with the A/C running with the electric fan. You will need a nice fully shrouded custom dual 12" fan setup to stay cool with A/C. Additionally, like stated, the alternator needs upgrading before you can reliably run an electric fan.
The pulleys and electric fan should gain you roughly 10hp, but you will have a hard time keeping the car cool with the A/C running with the electric fan. You will need a nice fully shrouded custom dual 12" fan setup to stay cool with A/C. Additionally, like stated, the alternator needs upgrading before you can reliably run an electric fan.
PhLoBuS
New Member
I think you will get around 8-10 hp on the u/d pulleys... best bolt on money can buy =] I would suggest the MAC lightweight, they are around 85 dollars, perform well and look nice =]
stangbear427
Active Member
Not true- at least not in all applications. One popular diagnostic test we used to run for various purposes, while barbaric, involved tricking the computer by heating and cooling the 02's artificially and watching it's reactions on the scanner. They most definitely are temp based, and pretty much every one I've seen fell about where M.Y. said when it was working properly. It takes no time at all for exhaust to get piping hot, and when it does the computer totally changes gears. Coincidentally, it tends to be very consistent until the 02's start to go bad, so it can usually be timed like clockwork- but that's all it is. If the 02 doesn't reach operation temp, then the computer never changes the loop. You don't want to know how bad my gas mileage got before I found this out the first time...Grn92LX said:Open loop to closed loop transfunction is TIME based NOT temperature based
I meant coolant temp not O2 sensor temp. Sounds like you need to talk to some of the guys that actually tune for a living Its TIME based. It would be foolish for Ford to design the eec to only go into closed loop at a certain temp. What about the freezing winter? What about lower temp stats? You'd have hundreds of people claiming warranty repair for bad gas mileage or something. Its time based, its been said many times by knowledgeable tuners and people on the net.
Its TIME based. It would be foolish for Ford to design the eec to only go into closed loop at a certain temp. What about the freezing winter? What about lower temp stats? You'd have hundreds of people claiming warranty repair for bad gas mileage or something. Its time based, its been said many times by knowledgeable tuners and people on the net.Definition of:
Closed Loop taken from Engine Performance Diagnosis & Tune Up 3rd edition 1997 By Check Chart Publications
"Closed loop control means that once certain conditions (such as coolant termperature) have been met, the computer now reads and responds to feedback signals.
When the egine is first started (open Loop), the computer ignores input from the O2S's signals." page 331
Closed Loop taken from Engine Performance Diagnosis & Tune Up 3rd edition 1997 By Check Chart Publications
"Closed loop control means that once certain conditions (such as coolant termperature) have been met, the computer now reads and responds to feedback signals.
When the egine is first started (open Loop), the computer ignores input from the O2S's signals." page 331
stangbear427
Active Member
Yeah, I'm with the majority on this one Grn92LX......you be wrong! Sounds like you've been talking to the wrong tuners. Temperature most definitely has an effect on whether a computer remains in closed loop operation. And I don't know about your car, but everyone else’s vehicle does get harder on gas in the winter....especially during cold start up!
If it was in fact only “Time Based” are you are saying then you’d be going through open loop for the same amount of time after each start up. That theory is shot right off the bat considering it’s going to react quite differently between when your cars been sitting overnight and you’re cars been sitting for 5-minutes after a hard run.
Good try though!
If it was in fact only “Time Based” are you are saying then you’d be going through open loop for the same amount of time after each start up. That theory is shot right off the bat considering it’s going to react quite differently between when your cars been sitting overnight and you’re cars been sitting for 5-minutes after a hard run.
Good try though!
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
10Hole - your reference sounds as if it's from a generic description of how feedback systems work. Let's get more specific. From Charles Probst' book "Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control", pg. 86 in the Oxygen Sensor section --
"The ceramic sensor body is a solid electrolyte that generates a voltage only if the ambient air has a higher oxygen content thant the exhaust. The ceramic material must be hotter than about 300 degrees C (570F). On a cold engine, it may take 90 to 120 seconds for an unheated oxygen sensor to get hot enough to start generating voltage.
In most 1988-1993 EEC systems, and beginning with '93 MECS, you'll find electrically heated oxygen sensors to improve emission control. Durnig engine warm up, mixtures are rich because the system is operating open loop, not controlled closed loop. The sooner the oxygen sensor becomes hot enough to send proper signals, the sooner the engine can operate closed loop for better control. A heated sensor may be hot enough after 10-15 seconds. V-type engines usually two oxygen sensors, one for each bank."
Probst' book is considered the 'bible' when it comes to Ford's EEC systems. The engineers designed the system to get into closed loop as quickly as possible because cold start up is the dirtiest part of the engine's EPA running cycle. The last thing they wanted to do was wait until coolant temps had warmed to some predetermined temp -- they couldn't pass what were then becoming stricter and stricter emissions levels. The main reason heated O2 sensors were developed was so they could decrease the 90-120 second time interval to something much shorter - so the engine could get to closed loop much quicker - so they could better control emissions. There are coolant temperature dependant functions - but they pertain to primarily to how the thermactor diverter valves and egr systems operate.
The computer wants to get to closed loop asap - it's the most efficient mode of operation from an emissions and fuel economy perspective. It just needs the O2 sensors to warm up to do so.
"The ceramic sensor body is a solid electrolyte that generates a voltage only if the ambient air has a higher oxygen content thant the exhaust. The ceramic material must be hotter than about 300 degrees C (570F). On a cold engine, it may take 90 to 120 seconds for an unheated oxygen sensor to get hot enough to start generating voltage.
In most 1988-1993 EEC systems, and beginning with '93 MECS, you'll find electrically heated oxygen sensors to improve emission control. Durnig engine warm up, mixtures are rich because the system is operating open loop, not controlled closed loop. The sooner the oxygen sensor becomes hot enough to send proper signals, the sooner the engine can operate closed loop for better control. A heated sensor may be hot enough after 10-15 seconds. V-type engines usually two oxygen sensors, one for each bank."
Probst' book is considered the 'bible' when it comes to Ford's EEC systems. The engineers designed the system to get into closed loop as quickly as possible because cold start up is the dirtiest part of the engine's EPA running cycle. The last thing they wanted to do was wait until coolant temps had warmed to some predetermined temp -- they couldn't pass what were then becoming stricter and stricter emissions levels. The main reason heated O2 sensors were developed was so they could decrease the 90-120 second time interval to something much shorter - so the engine could get to closed loop much quicker - so they could better control emissions. There are coolant temperature dependant functions - but they pertain to primarily to how the thermactor diverter valves and egr systems operate.
The computer wants to get to closed loop asap - it's the most efficient mode of operation from an emissions and fuel economy perspective. It just needs the O2 sensors to warm up to do so.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
....and we've got some semantics at works. Coolant temp has nothing to do with it. It's time and temperature based in that it takes a certain amount TIME for the O2's to reach operating TEMPERATURE. So it will take longer when the O2 sensor is colder to start with. But we're talking seconds, not minutes. It can take mine 10 minutes to reach t'stat open coolant temps; but it's in closed loop before I get out of the neighborhood.
electric fan...
I dyno'd before and after.
No other changes to the car, or it's tune.
gained 1hp, lost 3tq.
At the track,there was no gain what-so-ever... nor was there any loss.
It is a good mod for cooling purposes, or, if you're sick of the propelloer noise.
Intake spacer...
If you need valve cover clearence go for it, otherwise, send me the 40bux, I need it.
I dyno'd before and after.
No other changes to the car, or it's tune.
gained 1hp, lost 3tq.
At the track,there was no gain what-so-ever... nor was there any loss.
It is a good mod for cooling purposes, or, if you're sick of the propelloer noise.
Intake spacer...
If you need valve cover clearence go for it, otherwise, send me the 40bux, I need it.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Mike - the problem is that neither the dyno or the track is repeatable enough to reliably quantify small incremental gains/losses. You definitely reduced parasitic losses by not twirling that heavy mass around - but it's gonna be REALLY hard to measure it.
Even if you removed the fan/belt while on the same strap down session at the dyno, the air pressure difference in rear tires that occurs after a run can alter the next run by 5HP. Virtually impossible to measure those small changes reliably. People put WAY too much emphasis on absolute dyno numbers.
Even if you removed the fan/belt while on the same strap down session at the dyno, the air pressure difference in rear tires that occurs after a run can alter the next run by 5HP. Virtually impossible to measure those small changes reliably. People put WAY too much emphasis on absolute dyno numbers.
My bad, I was always under the impression it was temperature related. Either way, an engine will run its best when it is running at normal operating temperature - which is at least what i'm getting at.Grn92LX said:Open loop to closed loop transfunction is TIME based NOT temperature based
Anyway, more on the e-fan. It doesn't "add" horsepower, it just frees it up
You'd be best to PM tmoss for hard numbers. But i've personally got a welded ported lower on mine and it now pulls all the way up to 5800rpm, where it used to fall on it's face at about 5400rpm before.noslow5_0 said:
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Matt - 9:1? Are you sure? Jeez, you could only go, what, a couple of blocks before the tank would run dry? How can you see behind you with that black smoke screen? Looks like a diesel? OK - I'll stop.... I don't know that my 8-10 HP per point 'guess' is scalable that far away from optimum a/f ratios.
I don't know that my 8-10 HP per point 'guess' is scalable that far away from optimum a/f ratios.Similar threads
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