Vortech Says This In Regards To Intercoolers/after. Do Y'all Concur?

[Bullitt347]

I do not run a small radiator in front for the water coming out of the air/water intercooler. I found that the extra plumbing (hoses/radiator) actually led to higher air charge temps because it slowed down the water as it circulated from the tank in the trunk, through the air/water intercooler, through the small radiator and then back to the main tank. I dropped over 30 degrees of air charge temp by just having the water go from the tank, through the intercooler core and then straight back to the main tank.

 

[FastDriver]

Cool man. Is the pump circulating continuously?

 

[Bullitt347]

Yes, the pump runs all of the time. Except if I am going to make a pass down the strip. Then I turn the pump on after the burnout and before staging the car. Some guys dink around during the burnout and staging and if the pump runs the whole time you can melt a whole lot of ice. Even after doing the run and driving back down the return road and then driving to the pits it is not uncommon to still have a few ice cubes floating around in the tank.

 

[84Ttop]

I concede.. @FastDriver you have made very valid points that I will very carefully consider if this same question arises again. I appreciate your persistence on the matter at hand.

 

[FastDriver]

LOL, 84T. Wasn't a contest, man. No need to concede I'm equally sure that a robust A-W-A system will still get the job done on the street and is absolutely right for some applications. When a system works effectively, it's a moot point. It either brings the temps down to effectively prevent detonation and increase power output to the desired level, or it doesn't and needs to be made bigger.

So, you really do have an A-W system, Bullitt. That's definitely the most effective system available for a drag application. Sounds like you did your homework.

 

[Bullitt347]

I don't know about homework. That would imply that I actually studied up on the physics of thermal dynamics and how it relates to air/water cooling. Nope, not me. I just tried this, then I tried that, compared notes, datalog some more, try something else and basically let the results tell me the direction that was the most efficient at getting the results that were needed. It proves that even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut. It is all trial and error. First off find anything available for air/water or air/air intercooling that is commercially available for a Kenne Bell supercharged pushrod SBF and you soon realize that you are on your own. Call it a exercise in engineering, without being an engineer Lol.

 

[elarm1]

Very interesting stuff here. You guys are very knowledgeable.

 

[Bullitt347]

Very interesting stuff here. You guys are very knowledgeable.

This only proves that you can fool some of the people some of the time............

 

[revhead347]

I like this forum. People can disagree without getting all offended.

As for the blown Cougar, I believe it had a pipe that came out behind the blower and off to side where the throttle body was located.

Kurt

 

[Noobz347]

I like this forum. People can disagree without getting all offended.

As for the blown Cougar, I believe it had a pipe that came out behind the blower and off to side where the throttle body was located.

Kurt

Very true. The HARD part is convincing newer members that, that's how it's supposed to roll here. Too many folks come here from other forums and take it as a personal insult that others do not agree.

 

[revhead347]

My experience with the internet is that there is an incredible amount of butt hurt on any topic that comes up.

Kurt

 

[FastDriver]

Yep. That's my experience, too. I usually just roll with it. I think most are drama queens acting more offended than they really are.

 

[elarm1]

My experience with the internet is that there is an incredible amount of butt hurt on any topic that comes up.

Kurt

He said butt and hurt and experience. Keep talking like that and you'll make me love you

 

[revhead347]

Two things will lead to butt hurt; arguing on the internet and too many Locos tacos. I have experience with both.

Kurt

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Late to the party as usual.

I've always understood the A2W I/C as being not as efficient at dropping charge temps, as it is discussed above. Despite that, I am running one as a matter of smaller packaging, Yes it is way more complicated, and in the grand scheme, having to create space in the trunk for the "second heat exchanger" was way more involved than just stuffing a big assed A2A in front of my radiator. The front end of a Fairmont just isn't as condusive to hiding that. It concerns me though that @Bullitt347 was able to drop charge temps by removing all of the junk that I currently have struggled to build, and to that I guess I need to ask how much water was in the closed loop, and how big was the radiator and the cooling fan that was tasked w/ cooling the water back down?

 

[Noobz347]

Late to the party as usual.

I've always understood the A2W I/C as being not as efficient at dropping charge temps, as it is discussed above. Despite that, I am running one as a matter of smaller packaging, Yes it is way more complicated, and in the grand scheme, having to create space in the trunk for the "second heat exchanger" was way more involved than just stuffing a big assed A2A in front of my radiator. The front end of a Fairmont just isn't as condusive to hiding that. It concerns me though that @Bullitt347 was able to drop charge temps by removing all of the junk that I currently have struggled to build, and to that I guess I need to ask how much water was in the closed loop, and how big was the radiator and the cooling fan that was tasked w/ cooling the water back down?

Unless I've missed something, that part was in reference to the track setup when ice was being used.

 

[Bullitt347]

Initially we had a radiator for the intercooler mounted in front of the engine radiator. This intercooler radiator was much the same as was/is used on Terminator Cobras except it was the larger aftermarket one that everybody steps up to when they start making more power with those cars. We did not have a separate fan for it, just relied on the air passing through the front grill area. Car had a Saleen nose on it, so it had more open area to the radiator than you typical Gt front end. The intercooler tank in the trunk is a 7.6 gal capacity tank made by Chiseled Performance.

like pictured. It comes with it's own water pump inside. A Rule 2000 pump rated at 33 gallons per min. From the tank the water flows through -12 hose up to the intercooler core mounted in a upper inlet manifold which in turn is mounted on a Trick Flow R lower manifold. Once the water flowed through the intercooler core it then had to go through the radiator mounted in front of the engine radiator and then back to the tank in the trunk. It was when we removed the plumbing from the intercooler core to the radiator, the radiator itself and just plumbed it straight from the tank to the intercooler core and back to the tank that we saw a 30* drop in air charge temps. I am sure that removing the extra hose and radiator, plus the fact that the pump was trying to push all of this water forward during hard acceleration led to the lower air charge temps. The water flow through the intercooler core had to improve a bunch by removing this "restriction". Adding ice to this tank before a run just makes it that much more efficient at lower charge temps. Even then, without ice, it works quite well. With a 8 plus gallon reservoir if you count all of the water in the tank, hoses and intercooler it takes a lot to get the water even warm. It is more like lukewarm after extended driving.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Unless I've missed something, that part was in reference to the track setup when ice was being used.

No, you didn't miss something, it wasn't discussed until just now^^. Bullitt347 had a heat exchanger for a radiator w/o a dedicated fan attached, and an 7.6 gal reservoir, w/ a big assed internal pump.
I have a factory Bosch Cobra pump, pumping water out of a 2.5 gal reservoir through two fan cooled radiators to the IC core, and back. IDK how mine will differ given that I have those two actual radiator/fans back there, but I'm sure that there'll be significant restriction for my poor little Bosch Cobra pump to try and exchange the water quickly enough.

Just another one of those time will tell things I guess.

 

[Bryan B]

Vortech has been pushing this for over a decade. The reality is that the THEIR water to air intercooler doesn't do anything. Vortech used to be king of the market with only Paxton putting any real pressure on them. Then ATI introduced their ProCharger line for the Mustang. Initially they didn't sell very well because the head units had a nasty habit of blowing chunks into the engine. ProCharger eventually improved the quality of the head unit. Every kit came with an intercooler already designed it. Vortech has been running the same setups for 20 years. Instead of redesigning them all to include an air to air intercooler, they designed a half ass air to water to air cooler that would fit into their current kits. It didn't really do anything because it was over complicated and too small. Then they started a campaign of talking down the intercooler as a concept. ProCharger setups continued to yield better performance over all, and Vortech continued to lose market share. What they refer to as "parasitic loss" is actually just a low of physics. Pressure x Volume / Temperature is constant in a closed system. If you cool down the air charge, the pressure is going to drop. You are still getting the same volume of air, just at a lower pressure and temperature which is more friendly to the engine. Vortech still builds some of the best quality head units available, and I find it unfortunate that they have used a scandalous business tactic to undermine the competition instead of just promoting the quality of their product.

Kurt

Colder air is better for the engine. Yes, however chemistry and physics also state that colder air has more oxygen molecules per given volume. Colder air is denser air. Yes, same volume but more oxygen content. Air is air, and temp is temp. That's why also force inducted cars run so well in the winter (I'm from Houston).

I'm new to the Forum (Was a member back in the late 90's-y2k) so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Noobz347]

Colder air is better for the engine. Yes, however chemistry and physics also state that colder air has more oxygen molecules per given volume. Colder air is denser air. Yes, same volume but more oxygen content. Air is air, and temp is temp. That's why also force inducted cars run so well in the winter (I'm from Houston).

I'm new to the Corral (Was a member back in the late 90's) so correct me if I'm wrong.

The trouble is that nitrogen is heavier, therefore, increases at a higher rate if the assumption is that you're pulling from ambient air volume.



You may also have missed this piece:

Pressure x Volume / Temperature is constant in a closed system

The air has already been ingested prior to being compressed or 'inter-cooled'. At this point, it doesn't matter how much you heat it or cool it, the molecules that were present when the mass of air entered are the same molecules that are squeezed and cooled (unless of course, we're heating to nuclear interaction levels ).

Now, if you could super cool the mass of air [before] entering the entire assembly and without consuming power to do it, [then] we'd have a modern miracle.