Why did Ford build 2 different 351 engines?

1973mach1 · Jan 29, 2004

I think the Windsor's older then the Cleveland? Just wondering why Ford would build 2 completely different 351 engines? Were they meant for different purposes?

Thanks,
Jim

Blown4.6 · Jan 29, 2004

Cleveland was for hp (although it wasn't exactly a monster, didn't oil well and also didn't cool well). Windsor was for torque and driveability. Windsor came out before Cleveland. It was also used in a lot of trucks. I'll take a modified winsdor any day.

351w- torque, cooled heads then block, oiied very well, durable
351c- for hosepower, heavier block, coolant through block then heads, tend to overheat, didn't oil well, beter flowing heads than windsor Came with either heads for 2v or for 4v. Heads had larger valves and huge intake ports.
351m- actually a destroked 400

usedtobe 67p51d · Jan 29, 2004

it was the late '60's ...something about brownies!

12sec67 · Jan 29, 2004

windsor's

SadbutTrue · Jan 29, 2004

They made three, the windsor was built more for trucks than high performance applications, whereas the cleveland was designed to be strong at the track stock, with huge flowing heads that yielded considerable power up high. The 351M was built for passenger cars and luxury models throughout the 70s and shares some design cues with the 400M and the 351C.

Modern day windsors have much more potential, since they are stronger and oil better, and almost all aftermarket stuff for the 5.0/302 will work on them (and they have plenty of parts for anything that doesn't interchange, like intakes). Clevelands certainly had the edge stock though.

jcp123 · Jan 30, 2004

i liek both clevelands and windsors. the windsor was just a stretched 289/302 block that was cheap to make, and the cleveland was built to take more abuse and be more of a "true" muscle car engine. the M engines were truck/smog engines. torquey suckers though...

1973mach1 · Jan 30, 2004

Is the stock crank and piston rods on a Cleveland strong? Im building a 351c 4bbl out of my 2bbl engines and was wondering if the stock piston rods and crank can handle 400HP or so? Is the oil problem that bad? I heard some say yes and some say no. Is it an easy fix? Im going to be rebuilding the engine starting in a few weeks or sooner hopefully.

Thanks,
Jim

foghorn67 · Jan 30, 2004

1973mach1 said:
Is the stock crank and piston rods on a Cleveland strong? Im building a 351c 4bbl out of my 2bbl engines and was wondering if the stock piston rods and crank can handle 400HP or so? Is the oil problem that bad? I heard some say yes and some say no. Is it an easy fix? Im going to be rebuilding the engine starting in a few weeks or sooner hopefully.

Thanks,
Jim

cleveland bottom ends are extremely strong, easily handing 400+hp. be sure your set is balanced well from a reputable machine shop.

D.Hearne · Jan 30, 2004

Only three 351's? I counted 4 of em. Y'all are leaving out the 352, same bore and stroke. Actually all the 351's are 352's. The oiling problem in the Cleveland was only a problem at high rpms, and is easily remedied by either an external line from the front pressure port to the rear, or installing a $10 restrictor kit .And as Foghorn said,the bottom ends are extremely strong, stronger than the Windsors. The stock cast cranks were run in Nascar and Pro-Stock drag racing back in the 70's and 80's, spun up to 9000 rpms ( with a few mods)

rbohm · Jan 30, 2004

doggone it D you beat me to it.

dodgestang · Jan 30, 2004

1973mach1 said:
I think the Windsor's older then the Cleveland? Just wondering why Ford would build 2 completely different 351 engines? Were they meant for different purposes?

Thanks,
Jim

Ford built for the cleveland for racing.....until the Chevy guys complained about loosing all the time to it and the sanctioning bodies declare it illegal.

That is the very abridged version of the story

'69Stang · Jan 30, 2004

I run my cleveland to 7000 rpm's all the time. The stock crank and rods are good to 7500 RPM's regularly - if you upgrade the bolts and have the reciprocating assembly dynamically balanced (~$200). The blocks are good up to around the 500-550 HP level. All the oiling related problems are myths for the street enthusiast, though putting in the oil restrictors is a good idea to eliminate any high RPM related oil starvation (I did).

The bonus with clevelands is that you don't need to buy after market cylinder heads - they came with a set from the factory.

Edbert · Jan 30, 2004

I though the 351W and 351C both came out in 69?

Why did Ford kill the Cleveland? Only one correct answer (not talking racetracks)....OPEC!

rbohm · Jan 30, 2004

nick, the sactioning bodies did not make the cleveland illegal, but they did add weight to canted valve engined cars, that included the big block chevy as well along with the hemi. ebert the cleveland died because they couldnt be made to meet emmision standards at the time.

dodgestang · Jan 30, 2004

rbohm said:
nick, the sactioning bodies did not make the cleveland illegal, but they did add weight to canted valve engined cars, that included the big block chevy as well along with the hemi. ebert the cleveland died because they couldnt be made to meet emmision standards at the time.

Well...I did say abrigded version

I learned something new today

69stang351 · Jan 30, 2004

You all are forgeting mine!! the 351 PI (Police Interceptor) I guess it could be classified under the windsor category but I can tell you that it will beat any windsor you put up against it... that is once i get her put back together in my car... lol

65fsbkhipo · Jan 30, 2004

D.Hearne said:
Only three 351's? I counted 4 of em. Y'all are leaving out the 352, same bore and stroke. Actually all the 351's are 352's. The oiling problem in the Cleveland was only a problem at high rpms, and is easily remedied by either an external line from the front pressure port to the rear, or installing a $10 restrictor kit .And as Foghorn said,the bottom ends are extremely strong, stronger than the Windsors. The stock cast cranks were run in Nascar and Pro-Stock drag racing back in the 70's and 80's, spun up to 9000 rpms ( with a few mods)

Tell me more about this external pressure port routing!

1973mach1 · Jan 30, 2004

Back before 1974 it seems Mustangs had so many more options then today, you had a big choice of engines: 429's, 351'sC, HO, CJ, 4bbl, 2bbl, 302's, I6's, 390's, 428's, 289's...Sometimes 5 or 6 a year to choose from. 4 different trannies, whole bunch of rear end ratio's. Now you have a choice of a v6 or a v8, a auto or manual. Not much to choose from. Why don't they give us more of a selection? I wonder what kind of power the engines/cars would have been pulling if the OPEC, Insurance, and emissisions had held of for a few more years.

Jim

D.Hearne · Jan 30, 2004

65fsbkhipo said:
Tell me more about this external pressure port routing!

It's simple, just run a 3/8 to 1/2 external oil line from the front pressure port above the fuel pump boss, up and over to the rear port, behind the intake. The Cleveland suffers from the main gallery also being the right side lifter gallery. This tends to lose oil pressure around the lifter bodies. The External line just insures the rear mains get as much oil supply as the front does, by tapping into the front oil passage running from the filter to the main gallery and supplying it directly to the rear main. The Nascar and Pro-Stock racers went a little further and installed an oil manifold under the intake , directly supplying the mains with oil from the same source.

mtpony · Jan 30, 2004

I have a clev 2v and man I love it, but my clev 4v is about to be assembled in the next couple of months and I can't wait.

mike

Why did Ford build 2 different 351 engines?

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