Hmmmm, I guess I'm going to have to remember FIC when it's time to order the injectors for my car.
Progress Thread Nicholase "lights out" build- TKX install
- Thread starter nicholase
- Start date
Ive been told by my friend in Alabama that word is spelled just like it sounds... pank.I am tickled effin pink that you did all that and posted the results here.
I am going to steal your post and make it a sticky someplace. The last time I had injectors flow tested was 2000-something and [wished] I had thought to keep all the documentation.
That matched set is pretty sweet. I am 100% convinced that, that is the way to go.
.Feel free to do whatever with the info. Maybe it will lead to some good conversations.
Your advise to get injectors flow tested was solid. Somewhere I saw you mention you had brand new ones flow tested as well but couldn't find that particular post to qoute it.
LMR advertises the pink injectors to be flow matched at 3-5%. So most people would have just tossed them in, myself included.
The static test is when they open the injector and just let it flow for two minutes. Which would be similar to running it at 100% duty cycle. They were almost 15% apart from the lowest flowing injector to the highest. That seems significant.
The dynamic test is when they operate the injector at a duty cycle similar to normal driving. That test for the pink ones was almost 10% variance. Again it seems significant.
So if I happened to grab three of the highest flow injectors and the lowest flowing injector and put them all in the same bank I wouldn't expect it to work out very well.
This got me thinking about proper injector placement and I wouldn't mind info from those more knowledgeable than me.
Edited post- was confusing- still probably is lol
I'm not sure If the injectors are in two banks with each banks injector pulse width monitored by the corresponding O² sensor and controlled by the EEC. If this is correct then it would seem logical to group injectors with similar flow rates per bank.
If this is not the case, and the EEC can only adjust pulse width for all the cylinders at once, then it would seem logical to install the injectors balanced between left and right so the AFR wide band that monitors only one side should he seeing very similar to the unmonitored side.
I'll have to look more into this more
Edited post- was confusing- still probably is lol
I'm not sure If the injectors are in two banks with each banks injector pulse width monitored by the corresponding O² sensor and controlled by the EEC. If this is correct then it would seem logical to group injectors with similar flow rates per bank.
If this is not the case, and the EEC can only adjust pulse width for all the cylinders at once, then it would seem logical to install the injectors balanced between left and right so the AFR wide band that monitors only one side should he seeing very similar to the unmonitored side.
I'll have to look more into this more
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gkomo
now i can hopefully expect to receive the shaft
Are you saying basically that the EEC will be 'pushing' the lower flowing bank injectors more than the other bank with the higher flowing injectors, but both banks together would be flowing roughly equally?
Well I'm not sure. I edited my post because it was confusing.
Looks like I'll be doing some reading tonight
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I got my new Pro M 80mm MAF mounted today. It seemed pretty huge compared to the old one. At first I wasn't sure it was going to fit.
But it tucked in behind the fender just fine. I did make a new bracket for it to hold it secure. I used the bolts that secure my MSD BTM since they were already there and i really didn't want to drill holes if I could avoid it.
I made a paper template first
Then trace it on to some steel. I had some ⅛" so I used that.
One trick I've found to get nice bends is to mark them out and cut the steel along the bend line about halfway through. Then bend it into position and weld the line where it was cut. Sort of like origami.
Then I gave it a little paint and put in some rubner grommets for where the MAF will attach to help calm any vibration
Mounted
And installed
Put my splash shield back up
Tomorrow I'll start with the injectors.
But it tucked in behind the fender just fine. I did make a new bracket for it to hold it secure. I used the bolts that secure my MSD BTM since they were already there and i really didn't want to drill holes if I could avoid it.
I made a paper template first
Then trace it on to some steel. I had some ⅛" so I used that.
One trick I've found to get nice bends is to mark them out and cut the steel along the bend line about halfway through. Then bend it into position and weld the line where it was cut. Sort of like origami.
Then I gave it a little paint and put in some rubner grommets for where the MAF will attach to help calm any vibration
Mounted
And installed
Put my splash shield back up
Tomorrow I'll start with the injectors.
Those are some nice welds!I got my new Pro M 80mm MAF mounted today. It seemed pretty huge compared to the old one. At first I wasn't sure it was going to fit.
But it tucked in behind the fender just fine. I did make a new bracket for it to hold it secure. I used the bolts that secure my MSD BTM since they were already there and i really didn't want to drill holes if I could avoid it.
I made a paper template first
Then trace it on to some steel. I had some ⅛" so I used that.
One trick I've found to get nice bends is to mark them out and cut the steel along the bend line about halfway through. Then bend it into position and weld the line where it was cut. Sort of like origami.
Then I gave it a little paint and put in some rubner grommets for where the MAF will attach to help calm any vibration
Mounted
And installed
Put my splash shield back up
Tomorrow I'll start with the injectors.
Agree. The more I deal with LMR, the less impressed I am with their product quality and fitment. Anyone else notice the same thing? Is NPD better?I am tickled effin pink that you did all that and posted the results here.
I am going to steal your post and make it a sticky someplace. The last time I had injectors flow tested was 2000-something and [wished] I had thought to keep all the documentation.
That matched set is pretty sweet. I am 100% convinced that, that is the way to go.
The LMR ones seem solid at 43 psi but they sure lose consistency at 90. I wonder if that much pressure is outside of their specs?To see if the 55mm MAF is causing a restriction I decided to go with a Pro M 80mm MAF. I sent them a detailed list of all the modifications and they sent out a calibrated MAF for 24lb injectors.
It's considerably larger than the old factory MAF and Vortech supplied filter. So I'm sure there will be some fabrication involved. I'll take some pics as I go and post them.
I also ordered some fuel injectors. This is where it got a little interesting. I decided to get them flow tested. I read a few posts from Noobz about getting new injectors flow tested and the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a really good idea. I felt knowing what they are actually flowing would allow me to organize them in the fuel rails so the left and right bank have even flow. That way the AFR reading I'm seeing from my wideband in the left bank should be very similar to right which is not monitored. It would also let me catch any defect.
This quote is what really got me thinking about it.
Chances are if I went lean it wouldn't be all the cylinders evenly lean and destroyed together. It just takes one lean cylinder to stop the party.
I found a local fuel injector cleaner and flow test shop. He's a racer and was really great to work with and super fast turn around time. 7 bucks per injector to flow test.
I'm using a FMU which raises the fuel pressure under boost. So I had him flow them at the standard 43.5 psi and also 90 psi so I can see how consistent they are when being pushed.
The first set of injectors I got from LMR. They are the pink 24lb injector. This pic taken after getting them back from flowtesting. (They shipped from LMR loose in a ziplock bag.)
I wasn't thrilled with the results.
The flows were pretty inconsistent with each other and one of them had a higher resistance. Had I not got them flow tested I would have never know. I definitely didn't have the warm and fuzzies about using them.
I asked the owner of the shop if he knew of a place where I could order a set of new, not re manufactured OEM quality injectors. He recommended Fuel Injector Connection. I gave them a call and I ordered a set of flow matched, new, authentic Bosch 24lb injectors. Again I took them to be flow tested.
This time the results were great. This is what I expected to see from a quality injector. They flow nearly identical.
I should be able to get this wrapped up this weekend. Then I'll do a little "tuning" with the FMU. I'm having a local machine shop make me some calibration disc sets in sizes Vortech doesn't make.
Edit. Just saw how far off injector 1 is at 43 psi...still 24# but lower than the rest.
89ripper
Founding Member
I have nothing but good things to say about LMR... their customer service has been top notch and returns never have been a hassle for me. As far as quality of parts, it depends on the supplier....ive not bought anything from them (house brand) except rims and im not exactly sure if they are responsible for manufacturing
Not in this instance. This is what happens when you order a set of injectors. It doesn't matter if it's direct from the dealership even. All this outfit did was order a [bunch] of injectors and put them into match sets and maybe tune a few.
It really didn't have anything to do with LMR. They resold the injectors they were sent.
The flows report is a little odd to read. I should have mentioned more detail about how it's organized.
The flow is measured accurately in CC/minute (the first 3 digit #). Then converted to what lb/hr class it would represent in two digits with no decimals. The lb/hr is not the accurate number to use for any calculations. For example If you do a calculation you would see 268 CC/Min = 25.523809523809526. On the report it would be listed as 26 lb/hr because it's technically closer to 26 than 25.
cc/m to lb/hr calculator
-So the CC is the number to pay attention to and the number the variance percentage is based on.
-The variance % is the number to look at to see how closely they are matched as a group.
-The CC flow # would be what to use to see what each injector is flowing individually when deciding on individual placement in the rails.
So the pink ones at 43.5 psi have a 14% variance static and 9.6% variance dynamic. Oddly they actually flowed more evenly matched when pushed to 90 psi as that variance dropped to 5.9 / 6.5.
In contrast the flow matched set from Fuel Injector Connection measured 1.1% and 1.2% variance respectively for both 43.5 psi tests. Which is better by a wide margin.
I can't blame LMR. They are just selling someone else's product who tells them what they are rated at. I'd guess they have a big box of them and grab 8 per order. You get what you get. Someone else might get a better matched set. Or maybe a worse one. Its pretty much luck of the draw, literally. They are just a reseller.
Fuel Injector Connection is an injector specialist and flow matches each order in house. It's their business so I expected alot from them and they delivered a really nicely matched set.
In hindsight I should have reached out to the local injector shop that did my flow testing BEFORE I ordered and learned more about it. I knew i was going to take them to him to test them anyways when I ordered them. Should have called him first.
Seperate but related, I should also mention there are two FIC's to avoid any confusion there.
Fue Injector Connection sells OEM new and remanufactured injectors, performance injectors and flow matches in house from various manufacuted like Bosch, Siemans Deka, Denso etc.
Fuel Injector Clinic makes their own branded injectors based off modified Bosch's.
I pulled off the upper intake and went on a little vacuum leak expedition. The car currently runs great and has no vacuum leaks that I'm aware of. But like they say your either have one now, or haven't gotten one yet.
I found some light cracking.
So I replaced all the 3/8 vacuum lines with some Gates fuel injection hose. Also replaced the line from the intake to the purge valve.
All the other hard lines and connections look really good. I cleaned them all up and wiped them down with some silicone.
I noticed the EGR cooler lines were pretty crusty and that back one seems like it can only be replaced with the intake and fuel rail off. So now was a good time to replace them too.
While the intake and fuel rail was off I took the opportunity to clean all the engine harness connectors and salt and pepper shakers with some electrical contact cleaner, and lube them with dielectric grease. They all looked good actually. Still had the factory grease. This should help prevent any future gremlins.
Got my injectors out. Little numbers engraved correspond to the flow test sheet.
I did some math and split them up for evenly matched banks. These are so closely matched i don't think it really matters. But why not
The left bank averages 251.5 cc/m and the right averages 251.75 cc/m at 43.5 psi and 361 cc/m left, 361.25 right at 90 psi.
I jotted down on my flow test sheet what cylinder got each injector for future reference.
Because I'm using an old school FMU setup I'm jacking up the fuel pressure under boost. I've been worried about the 35 year old factory FP regulator blowing apart and spraying fuel all over a hot engine or something. I used an adjustable unit rated to 100psi. I'll just set it to factory settings but being rated to 100psi should prevent any issues.
I also cleaned out the rail with some carb cleaner and compressed air.
My new Bosch injectors hiding out in the cave.
All buttoned up. Time to fire it up and go for a ride.
I found some light cracking.
So I replaced all the 3/8 vacuum lines with some Gates fuel injection hose. Also replaced the line from the intake to the purge valve.
All the other hard lines and connections look really good. I cleaned them all up and wiped them down with some silicone.
I noticed the EGR cooler lines were pretty crusty and that back one seems like it can only be replaced with the intake and fuel rail off. So now was a good time to replace them too.
While the intake and fuel rail was off I took the opportunity to clean all the engine harness connectors and salt and pepper shakers with some electrical contact cleaner, and lube them with dielectric grease. They all looked good actually. Still had the factory grease. This should help prevent any future gremlins.
Got my injectors out. Little numbers engraved correspond to the flow test sheet.
I did some math and split them up for evenly matched banks. These are so closely matched i don't think it really matters. But why not
The left bank averages 251.5 cc/m and the right averages 251.75 cc/m at 43.5 psi and 361 cc/m left, 361.25 right at 90 psi.
I jotted down on my flow test sheet what cylinder got each injector for future reference.
Because I'm using an old school FMU setup I'm jacking up the fuel pressure under boost. I've been worried about the 35 year old factory FP regulator blowing apart and spraying fuel all over a hot engine or something. I used an adjustable unit rated to 100psi. I'll just set it to factory settings but being rated to 100psi should prevent any issues.
I also cleaned out the rail with some carb cleaner and compressed air.
My new Bosch injectors hiding out in the cave.
All buttoned up. Time to fire it up and go for a ride.
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