06/07 Mustang SVT

88GTsocal · Nov 24, 2004

AzSnake said:
I think you’re a lot more likely to see a 4.6 with the twin screw SC that we see on the Ford GT. Colleti already stated that "you don't think we would invest all this money on the GT and it's drive train to just put it in one car do you?" Fact is the DEW light can't accommodate a wider motor than what the current DOHC 4.6 comes in at. This is why they had to shut down the Mustang line in 2000 to shoehorn the Cobra R's 5.4 in. They had to modify the strut towers and it can't have the valve covers removed without taking the motor out. The DEW lite chassis is not a real significant departure from this. And their NOT going to do something like that for a Cobra with high production numbers (realative to the 300 Cobra R’s) Their not going to devise a whole new motor and block to accommodate the Cobra. they have also gotten HUGE press for the Super Charged 03 and 04's. It's been a win situation for them and don't expect to see them depart from that combination any time soon. The N/A rumors are vaporware. It’s easier for Ford to develop a SC high hp car than to develop a NA version.

I don't think Ford would put the GT motor in the Cobra. It doesn't seem very reasonable to think that someone would pay six figures for a GT when they could get the same power from a Cobra for $35k. I don't think Ford would even approach the 500hp mark with the Cobra. GT sales would be non-existent. I'm expecting between 400-450hp. My two cents.

03 SVT VERT · Nov 25, 2004

88GTsocal said:
I don't think Ford would put the GT motor in the Cobra. It doesn't seem very reasonable to think that someone would pay six figures for a GT when they could get the same power from a Cobra for $35k. I don't think Ford would even approach the 500hp mark with the Cobra. GT sales would be non-existent. I'm expecting between 400-450hp. My two cents.

Your thinking now, your not thinking in 2007 terms. In 2007 the Ford GT is done-gone-kaput-outta there, with the Shelby GR-1 (over 600hp) looking like the replacement. That means, Ford will have nothing in the 500hp range at all. Plus, the next cobra isn't going to be $35,000. Your looking more at $45,000-$50,000 range. You figure the corvette Z06 will have 500hp for around $60,000 and the GTO judge have 500hp for less, so 500hp won't be as big a number as it is now and if Ford can offer that number in a car that cost less then the Z06 and the Judge they will take some GM sales, which is what they really need. I'm sure by 2007 500hp will be the norm in hi-po sports cars. I actually really doubt the next SVT being anything less the 450hp, especially with Shelby working on it and it possibly having the GT350 and/or GT500 name.

Caballo Salvaje · Nov 25, 2004

I think I agree with the 3v twin screw theory. Why? Because something everyone needs to keep in mind is Ford will try to keep it as simple and cost efficient as possible. They can use the more expensive and not really that much better flowing 4v heads or the new 3v heads. The answer seems obvious to me. I think the eaton is almost certainly becoming obsolete as far as efficency and emissions are concerned. And with the whipple being an in house item now, that seems a for sure thing. They forge the 3v put a whipple on it, wa-la torque-o-rama baby!

RandyB · Nov 26, 2004

Caballo Salvaje said:
I think I agree with the 3v twin screw theory. Why? Because something everyone needs to keep in mind is Ford will try to keep it as simple and cost efficient as possible. They can use the more expensive and not really that much better flowing 4v heads or the new 3v heads. The answer seems obvious to me. I think the eaton is almost certainly becoming obsolete as far as efficency and emissions are concerned. And with the whipple being an in house item now, that seems a for sure thing. They forge the 3v put a whipple on it, wa-la torque-o-rama baby!

I think so too. I would love to see them develop a 5.4 version of the 3V with the screw-type blower on it, but even a 4.6 version even with the lesser flowing 3V heads would probably make more power than the previous Cobra motor did with the Eaton. The reason I think we will see a 5.4 is so they can use that same engine in the Lightning when it returns. But whichever one they use, we need an aluminum block with forged internals and the screw-type Whipple. Got Torque?

Badsnke98 · Nov 26, 2004

The inside word got I a while back is the motor used will be a detuned Ford GT 5.4 rated at 500hp. Cost of car mid 40's. Who do you trust? If fuel costs do not choke off hi-performance factory vehicles, this makes good sense to me.

RandyB · Nov 26, 2004

Badsnke98 said:
The inside word got I a while back is the motor used will be a detuned Ford GT 5.4 rated at 500hp. Cost of car mid 40's. Who do you trust? If fuel costs do not choke off hi-performance factory vehicles, this makes good sense to me.

Detuned 5.4 = 3V heads. The 5.4 is too wide for the Mustang except in a very limited run (read: next Cobra R).

03 SVT VERT · Nov 26, 2004

How much wider is the new stang over the old stang and how much was the R widened over the regular stang? If they are the same or close then we know the 5.4 is a possibility. Anyway, I too heard that a 5.4L will be used in a car marked as a shelby GT stang (I heard we may see a GT350 and GT500). I heard this from the head Ford rep at the NY autoshow and another guy who used to work for Ford so I consider the information to be pretty reliable. I'm thinking that they will use the 5.4 in a GT500 model and use the S/C 4.6 in a GT350 or something like that, but rate it at 400hp or 420hp. That gives them something to compete with the base GTO/Vette and something to compete with the Judge/Z06. I mean, it would make sense to have stangs in roughly 200hp (V6), 300hp (V8), 400 (GT350 Cobra) , and 500hp (GT500 Cobra) models.

RandyB · Nov 26, 2004

The 5.4 4V isn't too wide to fit, it will fit as well as it did in the previous Cobra R. But it is too wide to install the preferred way on the assembly line(same as Cobra R), and therefore I don't think you will see that engine used in anything but a very limited run, maybe 500 cars this time. It would be a nice surprise to be found wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.

However, I still think a 5.4 3V in any form would be very nice!

Rampant · Nov 27, 2004

Hmmm....
GT460 (4.6 3v, S/C, 380hp) ~ $32k
GT540 (5.4 3v, S/C, 500hp) ~ $45k

It makes sense to me. Ford could use exisiting motors with minimal alterations, and use the Shelby-style naming conventions.

351CJ · Nov 27, 2004

Rampant said:
Hmmm....
GT460 (4.6 3v, S/C, 380hp) ~ $32k
GT540 (5.4 3v, S/C, 500hp) ~ $45k

It makes sense to me. Ford could use exisiting motors with minimal alterations, and use the Shelby-style naming conventions.

Except that a 4.6 will produce greater than 85% the HP of a 5.4. Directly scaling by displacement your HP ratios would be:

4.6 - 425 HP
5.4 - 500 HP

However, that would assume the bore is increased proportionately, which it is not since the 5.4 has the same bore.

So realistically, if you can get 500 HP out of a 5.4, than you should be able to get 450 HP out of a 4.6.

I'm leaning towards an all aluminum twin screw 4.6 for the next SVT Cobra that will have 450 HP or greater.

Scot_94GT · Nov 28, 2004

Prediction wars are fun, so here's my two cents...

Ford absolutely WILL NOT offer 500hp in any mass-production Mustang in the near (5 years or more ) future...unless they make it a $60,000 car...but they won't. There are more problems that come with trying to make a 500hp car besides motor fitment, manufacturability, and cost; there are also political problems.

I'm sure we'd all love if Ford made a 500hp Cobra for $34,000, but insurance companies, advocacy groups, and a lot of ordinary citizens would be shocked and in dismay if a typical 21 year old with a decent full time job could go out and buy a car that can make it to 125mph in less than 12 seconds. Sure, there is the Viper with 500hp, the ZO6 Vette with a rumored "close to" 500hp, and the GT with over 550, but those cars are well out of the financial reach of "reckless 20 year olds".

As for my prediction of what we will see in terms of SE Mustangs:

Top of the line car:
Cobra: This car will have anywhere from 375 to MAYBE 450 at most. Don't be so quick to assume that the next Cobra will have more power than the previous version. The Mustang GT dropped 10hp from 93 to 94, and the ZR-1 Vette was not mached in power by GM until the ZO6 came out. As for the engine...that's anybody's guess. A 5.4L DOHC would be a real treat, but it probbably will not fit, so if we see ANY 5.4L in a SE car, it will be the SOHC 3V...maybe S/C. If it is a 4.6L it will be DOHC and definitely s/c.

Something between the GT and Top car:
Boss or Mach or GT350: I doubt we will see a Boss AND a Mach, but probbably one or the other, most likely a year or two after the Cobra come out. I could see this car having 325 to 380-ish hp. Possibly a 5.4L 3V N/A

Rare/Limited production:
Cobra R or GT500:
This is the category where we MIGHT see 500 or more hp in a Mustang. This car could have the GT motor (given that it is released after the GT is out of production), or possibly the 6.2L motor IF they make it.

Stangbang · Nov 28, 2004

Scot_94GT said:
Prediction wars are fun, so here's my two cents...

Ford absolutely WILL NOT offer 500hp in any mass-production Mustang in the near (5 years or more ) future...unless they make it a $60,000 car...but they won't. There are more problems that come with trying to make a 500hp car besides motor fitment, manufacturability, and cost; there are also political problems.

By 2007 there will be more 500 horsepower cars than anyone can imagine, count on the 07 Cobra to be right around 500 horsepower.

The current Cobra already makes around 425 (under-rated), and I know for a fact that they are not going to go backwards in any sense. It will only take 75 horses to get to 500 from where they are now, and with the twin screw blower Ford is using that alone can net you an extra 75 horses.

500 horses, take it to the bank..

I'm sure we'd all love if Ford made a 500hp Cobra for $34,000, but insurance companies, advocacy groups, and a lot of ordinary citizens would be shocked and in dismay if a typical 21 year old with a decent full time job could go out and buy a car that can make it to 125mph in less than 12 seconds. Sure, there is the Viper with 500hp, the ZO6 Vette with a rumored "close to" 500hp, and the GT with over 550, but those cars are well out of the financial reach of "reckless 20 year olds".

I don't know of anybody that has said the next Cobra will only cost "34,000".

As for my prediction of what we will see in terms of SE Mustangs:

Top of the line car:
Cobra: This car will have anywhere from 375 to MAYBE 450 at most. Don't be so quick to assume that the next Cobra will have more power than the previous version. The Mustang GT dropped 10hp from 93 to 94, and the ZR-1 Vette was not mached in power by GM until the ZO6 came out. As for the engine...that's anybody's guess. A 5.4L DOHC would be a real treat, but it probbably will not fit, so if we see ANY 5.4L in a SE car, it will be the SOHC 3V...maybe S/C. If it is a 4.6L it will be DOHC and definitely s/c.

1. This isn't 94.

2. That was only due to a new rating system by Ford.

3. The 07 Cobra will have 500 horsepower

Something between the GT and Top car:
Boss or Mach or GT350: I doubt we will see a Boss AND a Mach, but probbably one or the other, most likely a year or two after the Cobra come out. I could see this car having 325 to 380-ish hp. Possibly a 5.4L 3V N/A

I don't think anybody outside of Ford knows exactly whaty's in the pipeline as far as S/E's go, it would be nice to see a Bullitt on the new chassis with it's retro styling and all. Seeing as how Ford doesn't offer the 05's with any color green paint I think it's because they are saving it for a new Bullitt model.

I'm hoping for a set of 18" inch Bullitt wheels, and about 350-375 hosepower along with the usual suspension and visual mods.

Rare/Limited production:
Cobra R or GT500:
This is the category where we MIGHT see 500 or more hp in a Mustang. This car could have the GT motor (given that it is released after the GT is out of production), or possibly the 6.2L motor IF they make it.

This is another area that's not known yet, I'd say maybe a version of the 6.4L V10 from the Shelby and GR1 concepts. Because with a 500 horse Cobra, you'd have to have something bigger and more powerful..

Scot_94GT · Nov 28, 2004

Stangbang said:
By 2007 there will be more 500 horsepower cars than anyone can imagine

Like? I count 3. Z06, Viper, GT.

Stangbang said:
...and I know for a fact that they are not going to go backwards in any sense.

Fact? or rumor? If it is a fact, you must have some sort of credible source...and in writing, so "I heard from some guy who works on the inside" does not count.

Stangbang said:
500 horses, take it to the bank..

Believe me, I'd LOVE to belive that, but it's a pipe dream.

Stangbang said:
I don't know of anybody that has said the next Cobra will only cost "34,000".

If it is $39,000, or even $45,000...same argument. The next cheapest 500hp car is still a good $15,000 or so more expensive.

Stangbang said:
1. This isn't 94.

nor is this 1829... The point was that power does not always go up. Look at the mid `70s. It may not happen next year, but there HAS to be SOME peak in the current HP war, just as there was in the 70's. It is very possible (though maybe not plausible) that the '03/04 Cobra was the peak for the Mustang.

So at any rate...450hp MAYBE, 500hp...not a snowball's chance in hell.

dannygat · Nov 28, 2004

fyi i saw a site selling the GT motor (500hp) and it was $45k, so I dont see that motor going into any new $35k cobra.
But who cares if you get 400-450 it is very easy to get the extra 100-50 hp to get to 500

dozlert · Nov 28, 2004

oilypushrod said:
GTO is comin back

Hey guys. The GTO, and probably the Camaro are coming back...with a vengeance (400 HP at least). I think the Cobra should aim to compete with the Vette...and it'll need more than 400 HP this time! I also heard rumors Ford Cobra was going to up the ante to 500 hp, don't know how true that is. The 05 GTO should be able to easily smoke any of the other 'stangs. The mods are going to make the difference with the older GTO/Stang owners. Life is going to become interesting with the Charger and other new cars.

RandyB · Nov 28, 2004

I think at the most, we will see a 5.4 3V S/C rated at 450hp. At the very least we will see a 4.6 3V S/C rated at 400 hp. I don't think we will see any more DOHC 4V engines in this Mustang except for maybe SE cars like the Cobra R. I like the more compact dimensions of the 3V engines anyways, and they are lighter too. Sure, 4V are superior performance wise, but we will have a much better supercharger this time around. I expect the next SVT Mustang to cost between $39-45k, which would still be a pretty good value even at the top of that range if they deliver 450 hp. If it gets too close to the mid-40s, the C6 coupe has to be considered if you don't need rear infant seats.

dozlert · Nov 28, 2004

RandyB said:
I think at the most, we will see a 5.4 3V S/C rated at 450hp. At the very least we will see a 4.6 3V S/C rated at 400 hp. I don't think we will see any more DOHC 4V engines in this Mustang except for maybe SE cars like the Cobra R. I like the more compact dimensions of the 3V engines anyways, and they are lighter too. Sure, 4V are superior performance wise, but we will have a much better supercharger this time around. I expect the next SVT Mustang to cost between $39-45k, which would still be a pretty good value even at the top of that range if they deliver 450 hp. If it gets too close to the mid-40s, the C6 coupe has to be considered if you don't need rear infant seats.

These cars are getting pretty expensive to find the buyers for their niche. The price of the GTO was one thing that kept folks back. Also, the damn dealers kept adding charges above the MSRP...that turned folks off. Hopefully you won't see that with the Ford dealers, but I know you will.

351CJ · Nov 28, 2004

dannygat said:
fyi i saw a site selling the GT motor (500hp) and it was $45k, so I dont see that motor going into any new $35k cobra.
But who cares if you get 400-450 it is very easy to get the extra 100-50 hp to get to 500

The final, official HP rating on the GT engine is 550 HP.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/specs.asp
However, the GT engine is under-rated as are most Ford engines these days. I can't find the link right now, but somewhere I saw that the GT is putting over 500 HP to the rear wheels (dyno charts), or around 580 at the flywheel.

But as I posted before, a Ford engineer told me that the original target for the next Cobra was 400 HP normally aspirated. However, with the upcomming BIG HP #s from GM (rumored 427 CID - 500 HP for the Vette) and the 6.1L (500 HP??) Chrysler Hemi, the original plan has changed and SVT is working on a lot more than 400 HP for the next SVT Cobra.

I suppose that we can sit here and speculate whether there will be 2 SVT Cobras, a regular 400 HP model and a 500 HP model to match the competition.

RandyB · Nov 28, 2004

I think they will deliver 450 hp for the SVT and will reserve the next Cobra R for any 500+ hp variants. I do think they will put the Ford GT engine in the next Cobra R - it just seems like the obvious choice.

But BIG msrp + very limited quantities + dealer mark ups like never before = $$$$$$.$$!!!!

jmk97GT · Nov 28, 2004

The magic number is 450. Thats just my opinion.

As for what engine Ford will use, its not certain, but I think they will use a 3v.

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