351 Cleveland or Windsor...How can I tell?
- Thread starter bkshaw
- Start date
Is a cleveland better?
Thank you all for your fine info...I am now educated!
I do indeed have the 351 Cleveland.
This thing is bone stock...It starts and runs...but should have my mechanic friend pull it and check it out I guess...
I really just want a solid daily driver with "normal" V8 power.
And I want the engine to look clean.
What should I have done while I have the engine pulled out?
Thanks for your advice to this newbie!
Bkshaw
a.vannoy said:
Thank you all for your fine info...I am now educated!
I do indeed have the 351 Cleveland.
This thing is bone stock...It starts and runs...but should have my mechanic friend pull it and check it out I guess...
I really just want a solid daily driver with "normal" V8 power.
And I want the engine to look clean.
What should I have done while I have the engine pulled out?
Thanks for your advice to this newbie!
Bkshaw
If your going to pull it, and it's never been rebuilt, if nothing else, tear it down and change all the gaskets and seals, I'm certain that if you don't, you're going to get tired quickly of the leaks, and pulling up to the gas station and fillling it with oil and checking the gas 
you could have done this test
start by speeding on a freeway that is known to be patrolled by police on a regular basis. When you see the blue and red flashing lights, PUNCH IT! If you get away, it's a Cleveland. If you don't it's a Windsor.
I hear the Cleveland is nice at higher revs. Nice engines.
start by speeding on a freeway that is known to be patrolled by police on a regular basis. When you see the blue and red flashing lights, PUNCH IT! If you get away, it's a Cleveland. If you don't it's a Windsor.
I hear the Cleveland is nice at higher revs. Nice engines.
Nevermind... didn't see that it was a 2 barrel motor. Still have the 2 barrel intake?
Check back for more info. Please do your homework. Cleveland's can be just as inexpensive to make power with (Despite common disbeliefs), and that includes retaining the stock heads. Let me know how much power, street manners and usage you're looking for, and I'm more than willing to help.
Check back for more info. Please do your homework. Cleveland's can be just as inexpensive to make power with (Despite common disbeliefs), and that includes retaining the stock heads. Let me know how much power, street manners and usage you're looking for, and I'm more than willing to help.
70vert said:start by speeding on a freeway that is known to be patrolled by police on a regular basis. When you see the blue and red flashing lights, PUNCH IT! If you get away, it's a Cleveland. If you don't it's a Windsor.
I hear the Cleveland is nice at higher revs. Nice engines.
mmmmmm 4v cleveland at high rpms.....just soooooo nice!
seeking power
It does have the 2v and it is still stock. I would want a mild street daily driver... I would like to go with a 4 barrel carb and intake...but do I have to do anything with the heads? I was told that with the cleveland 2v I have to change the carb, intake AND heads? Is that true?
bkshaw
351carlo said:
It does have the 2v and it is still stock. I would want a mild street daily driver... I would like to go with a 4 barrel carb and intake...but do I have to do anything with the heads? I was told that with the cleveland 2v I have to change the carb, intake AND heads? Is that true?
bkshaw
No, not true. Edelbrock (for sure) and I think Weiand both make a 4 bbl intake that matches up to the 2 bbl heads.
I know Weiand makes the X-Celerator for both head designs. Edelbrock has a Performer for both a 351C Torker is listed in Summit, but not which head. Around $200-220 for any of them.
rofl70vert said:start by speeding on a freeway that is known to be patrolled by police on a regular basis. When you see the blue and red flashing lights, PUNCH IT! If you get away, it's a Cleveland. If you don't it's a Windsor.
I hear the Cleveland is nice at higher revs. Nice engines.
You already mentioned having the engine gone through, I'd do what DH recommended and have all the gaskets/seals replaced while it is apart, maybe even the oil pump. Then have the engine steam cleaned and painted.bkshaw said:
Same should be done to the engine compartment, thorough steam cleaning followed by paint stripping then primer and paint. It will never be easier than it is with the motor out
Good idea about replacing the oilpump, that's something I usually do also, just hadn't thought of it when I posted before. With the 68 Merc I have now, it only had 58,000 miles on it when I bought it. Damn thing leaked oil everywhere from the old, dried up gaskets and seals ( front, rear and valve seals) When my kid ran it hot and blew the head gaskets, that just gave me an excuse to pull it and give it a good going thru. In addition to the head gaskets being blown ( or rather just the seal being broken on the .020 steel shim gaskets from the heads getting too hot) I found two broken pistons, one from detonation, the other had one skirt missing ( found it in the oilpan) .
They are both great engines. The cleves have a lot more potential than the windsor with stock heads. If you wanted the car to be a bit more fun you could throw a cam and intake on there and easily hit 400hp. Just a suggestion I would do it. The windsor has its ups too, they also make amazing power and have a huge variety of aftermarket parts. I wouldn't trade one for the other, whichever one I would I have I'd build. Keep in mind that the Windsors are fords most successful and popular engines, there is a reason for that. But either way they are all small blocks, a 351 is a 351 the cleveland just has high flowing heads.
One thing to be beware of, is that the Cleveland has poor internal cooling, and can be prone to overheating, while the Windsor has excelent cooling.
Cooling is a big issue when building 351Cs.
Cooling is a big issue when building 351Cs.
I agree with most of what you're saying.69Rcode_Mach1 said:
However, Windsor and Cleveland have some marked differences, all designed into the Cleveland to make it superior for a performance application.
1. The Cleveland has smaller diameter mains, improving the high rpm durability of the crank.
2. The Cleveland does not flow coolant through the intake manifold. This is intended to keep the intake cooler, hence more power.
3. The Cleveland has canted valves (sometimes nicknamed semi hemi), which allow for larger valves and more flow.
4. The Cleveland was purposely cast with thin walls to reduce its weight.
And FVIKE I've never heard of Clevelands having cooling problems. And I've spent a lot of time researching them. If the C is making twice the power of a W, it will obviously take a larger radiator to cool it though.
The only cooling problems I've seen with Clevelands stemmed from yay-hoos, installing the head gaskets backwards. This creates a dramatic "explosion" thru the radiator once the trapped coolant flashes to steam when the engine heats it enough. This catastrophy doesn't happen with the Windsors, due to the coolant path. In a Cleveland, when the head gasket's installed backwards, the coolant flow is stopped where it returns back to the block from the heads, in a Windsor, the coolant just shortcuts the heads.
Hack said:I agree with most of what you're saying.
However, Windsor and Cleveland have some marked differences, all designed into the Cleveland to make it superior for a performance application.
1. The Cleveland has smaller diameter mains, improving the high rpm durability of the crank.
2. The Cleveland does not flow coolant through the intake manifold. This is intended to keep the intake cooler, hence more power.
3. The Cleveland has canted valves (sometimes nicknamed semi hemi), which allow for larger valves and more flow.
4. The Cleveland was purposely cast with thin walls to reduce its weight.
And FVIKE I've never heard of Clevelands having cooling problems. And I've spent a lot of time researching them. If the C is making twice the power of a W, it will obviously take a larger radiator to cool it though.
And I agree with you 100% just some things I neglected to mention. They are great engines. It's what I wanted originally but mine came with a windsor so I built it. Also back then it was pretty hard to get parts for them. Now things are picking up quick for the old cleve. Hopefully in a couple years they will have a huge aftermarket for them.
Wait a cotton picking minute here...LOL.
The large (huge actually) mains of the 351W are what make the bottom end so strong, but you are saying the smaller ones on the 351C make it more durable. What gives?
The large (huge actually) mains of the 351W are what make the bottom end so strong, but you are saying the smaller ones on the 351C make it more durable. What gives?
It's not that the cleveland's smaller mains make it stronger, it slows down the surface speed of the crank journals in relation to the bearings. A 3" journal is 9.4248" in circumference, that means it travels that far in one revolution. The Cleveland's smaller 2.75" ( actually 2.749) journal is 8.6394" in circumference, meaning that in one revolution the main journal travelsabout .8" of an inch less per revolution, and when you multiply that times the rpm's that something like a Nascar engine turns, that little, less than an inch distance adds up quickly. ( 8,000 rpms X .7854 = 6283.2", which is about 523 feet) So in effect it's sort of like putting a lot fewer miles on the mains, especially in a 500 mile race.Edbert said:
Hack said:And FVIKE I've never heard of Clevelands having cooling problems. And I've spent a lot of time researching them. If the C is making twice the power of a W, it will obviously take a larger radiator to cool it though.
Well, I have, but I'll admit that I haven't spent time researching them.
