400 HP 5.0 With A Stock Cam

blue66tang · Nov 19, 2004

Fostang said:
It's probably carbed.......

Whts wrong with carbed? Carbed engines in the past typicaly make more power than FI. The thing about FI is they retain their street maners quite well. If your saying his idle quality is due to his carb, i dont buy it. Mine idles at a freaking 1500 rpm and mine is carbed, but the problem is that i either need holes drilled in teh butterflies,or get a new Demon baseplate. Its got the new air screw for idle with big cams.

tjm73 · Nov 19, 2004

blue66tang said:
Whts wrong with carbed? Carbed engines in the past typicaly make more power than FI.

yeah I agree there is nothing wrong with carbs. A well tuned carb is quite efficient. The available power difference between carbs and EFI is virtually non-existent if the EFI setup is properly configured.

Thing is carbs are WAY cheaper to buy, install and they're easier to tune. EFI is more precise and more "hands off" in it's tuning due to the computer fine tuning everything all the time. Unfortuneatly EFI is a lot more expensive.

Bottom line both are good. Both have strong poiunts and both have weak points. It's come to the point where the Carb v EFI debate is really just a question of personal choice and/or finances.

Which would be cheaper to build? A 400 hp naturally aspirated 302 with a carb or a 400 hp naturally aspirated 302 with EFI? Look at just the hard parts for the induction process without the computer and wiring for the EFI

Carb Setup:
Carb $400
Air Cleaner $60
Intake Manifold $200
TOTAL Carb = $660

EFI Setup:
MAF $175
CAI Inlet $125
Throttlebody $180
EGR Plate $60
Intake Manifold $500
Fuel Injectors $250
TOTAL EFI = $1290

It's almost twice as much to go EFI. Not knocking EFI, I love EFI it has done revolutionary things to the automotive world. With precision comes efficency.... and expense.

D.Hearne · Nov 19, 2004

Fostang said:
It's probably carbed.......

You got that right---- Carbed, times THREE

Three Holley 250 cfm 2 bbls. And it gets way more attention than any EFI setup will when the hood's open. Driveablity is close to EFI too, just takes a minute or two to get it to idle in the morning. Other than that, if you didn't know what was under the hood, you wouldn't know the difference Had a 360 powered Dodge Dakota, try it out today ------- he lost.

D.Hearne · Nov 19, 2004

tjm73 said:
I got the specs for both the F1ZE OEM cam (used in the article) and the smallest Comp Cams Xtreme Energy Cam (the XE264HR-14, pn 35-349-8)

F1ZE:
Intake - 276 degrees of duration at .006"
Exhaust - 266 degrees of duration at .006"
Lobe Sep - 115.5 degrees
Lift - .445" w/ 1.6 Rockers, .473" w/ 1.7 Rockers

35-349-8 Comp Cams:
Intake - 264 degrees of duration at .006"
Exhaust - 270 degrees of duration at .006"
Lobe Sep - 114 degrees
Lift - .512" w/ 1.6 Rockers, .544" w/ 1.7 Rockers

Very similar with optimized ramp profiles on the Comp Cams camshaft.

Not really similar when you consider that the Ford cam's duration split is ass backwards from other aftermarket dual pattern cams. Lift specs are way off between the two also.

tjm73 · Nov 19, 2004

D.Hearne said:
Not really similar when you consider that the Ford cam's duration split is ass backwards from other aftermarket dual pattern cams. Lift specs are way off between the two also.

The way I see it they are reletivly close in duration and close in lobe sep. Obviously aftermarket is going to give it more lift. But the cam timing events and lobe seperation angles and, in my book, similar or pretty close at least.

12 degrees differtence on intake...ok that's getting to be a pretty good size difference, I'll give you that one.
4 degrees difference on exhaust
1.5 degrees difference on lobe seperation

Fostang · Nov 19, 2004

Carbs LOL

In with the new and out with OLD.....

Long runner intake=more torque....which is what wins races.

If you had a choice just by abracadabra would you rather have a carbed set up or a fuel injection set up? Most people would say FI.

I just love pissing people off.

blue66tang · Nov 19, 2004

Apperently, but whe the old still can out perform a the new...

tjm73 · Nov 19, 2004

Fostang said:
Long runner intake=more torque....

Only to a certain point where they impede hp. Long runners compensate for a lack of cubic inches. There comes a power point where the long runner is overkill. It's a precious balence between torque and horsepower producion.

Given the "abricadabra" option, I'd have to say the choice still depends on the application for me. I wouldn't universally pick EFI across the board for everything. Some street rods shoudl NEVER have EFI.

bnickel · Nov 19, 2004

makes me wonder how well the exact same setup would work with a 351.

1967coupe · Nov 20, 2004

In the article is said the engine was factory rated a 225 HP/ 300 TQ and all they did was freshen up the block and put on a carb, intake, and headers and they were at 278 HP and 315 TQ. This just doesn't seem right to me.

88 Fox GT · Nov 20, 2004

Fostang, good job stiring up the carb lovers! I think they are afraid of technology and don't have the knowledge to work on it. EFI makes that engines max power all the time, no matter what the conditions because the computer KNOWS what the engine needs, plain and simple. The carb doesn't have a clue, it's just squirting in some metered fuel and making the engine run. Carb cheaper? Yes. Easier? Maybe. Superior? No.

Anyway, this article is very interesting. I really want a set of AFR or TFS heads. But, I gotta get her running first. It will be running within the next month (or two at most).

Great68 · Nov 20, 2004

I prefer carb because of the much lower cost and the lack of good people to tune EFI Mustangs where I live.

nosaj122081 · Nov 20, 2004

Speed_Demon1965 said:
Fostang, good job stiring up the carb lovers! I think they are afraid of technology and don't have the knowledge to work on it. EFI makes that engines max power all the time, no matter what the conditions because the computer KNOWS what the engine needs, plain and simple. The carb doesn't have a clue, it's just squirting in some metered fuel and making the engine run. Carb cheaper? Yes. Easier? Maybe. Superior? No.

Anyway, this article is very interesting. I really want a set of AFR or TFS heads. But, I gotta get her running first. It will be running within the next month (or two at most).

Uh-huh... EFI is about efficiency and driviblity; for shear, unadulterated, old school, max power, the carb is still king. My senior design project for my EE degree is a multipoint EFI setup and distributorless ignition setup (using an extra 351C 2V as my guinea engine, a couple of microcomputers, a PBasic program to look at the inputs and produce the necessary output signals, and a whole lot of sensors). Will it work? Sure, if I plan on graduating... Will it EVER see use in my car? Not in a million years, I don't care about getting my car to start when its 40 degrees out or using a little extra gas, I want maximum power, plain and simple; I've ran a couple EFI turbo cars and never enjoyed working on them, tuning a carb is more fun and IMO gets more respect. Besides, EFI motors always look hideous, I'll leave them for the overdone street rod crowd. Just my $0.02.

D.Hearne · Nov 21, 2004

Speed_Demon1965 said:
The carb doesn't have a clue, it's just squirting in some metered fuel and making the engine run.

You really don't know much about carbs, do you? I'll let you in on a little secret, carbs don't squirt in a little fuel in the main metering circuit, the engine's vacuum pulls the fuel in. The only circuit that squirts fuel is the accellerator pump, and this is only to enrich the mixture till the main circuit catches up, after the throttle blades are opened faster than the main circuit can keep up. And only a mass air EFI system knows what the engine needs, on a speed density system, the computer "assumes" it knows what the engine needs,it's basically a "dumb" system, and not really any smarter than a carb.

88 Fox GT · Nov 21, 2004

D.Hearne said:
And only a mass air EFI system knows what the engine needs, on a speed density system, the computer "assumes" it knows what the engine needs,it's basically a "dumb" system, and not really any smarter than a carb.

This is true, but even the speed density is better than a carb IMO. Reason is, it's spraying an electronically metered amount of fuel individually into each cylinder. Even when you do need to adjust it, all it takes is a simple connection with a computer and you can tune everything individually without having to mess with screws, needles, or jets.

You see, the thing is, I'd rather not mess with a carb at all. I can't stand them, really. And I am VERY happy that I am going to EFI. I would rather take a few wires and plug in my EFI components and have the engine run exactly right, the first time and all the time. Almost like the way an engine is supposed to be.

These are my opinions on the issue, you can agree with me or not.

tjm73 · Nov 21, 2004

1967coupe said:
In the article is said the engine was factory rated a 225 HP/ 300 TQ and all they did was freshen up the block and put on a carb, intake, and headers and they were at 278 HP and 315 TQ. This just doesn't seem right to me.

The factory EFI 5.0 they used was rated at 225hp/300 ft-lbs. For the test they pulled the EFI and ran it with the Stealth intake and carb. So factory EFI is a BIG restriction.

burnout289 · Nov 21, 2004

someone mentioned that those heads weren't enough. what would necessitate the jump from 165cc to 185cc? my goal motor is a 5.0. probably carb to start, but EFI in the long run.

D.Hearne · Nov 22, 2004

Speed_Demon1965 said:
And I am VERY happy that I am going to EFI. I would rather take a few wires and plug in my EFI components and have the engine run exactly right, the first time and all the time.

Let me know how you feel after pulling a few hairs trying to get it to run right the FIRST time LOL From what I've read on other's experience with setting up an aftermarket EFI, they almost never run right the first time. Don't get me wrong I love the SD system in my 95 E150 van, but when it goes to ****, I'm sure I'll feel different. After over 130,000 miles, it's only gone to crap twice, the first time was a dirty air filter, the second time it vapor locked outside of Las Vegas, that time I had no idea what had gone wrong, after all EFI systems aren't supposed to suffer from that

88 Fox GT · Nov 22, 2004

D.Hearne said:
Let me know how you feel after pulling a few hairs trying to get it to run right the FIRST time LOL From what I've read on other's experience with setting up an aftermarket EFI, they almost never run right the first time. Don't get me wrong I love the SD system in my 95 E150 van, but when it goes to ****, I'm sure I'll feel different. After over 130,000 miles, it's only gone to crap twice, the first time was a dirty air filter, the second time it vapor locked outside of Las Vegas, that time I had no idea what had gone wrong, after all EFI systems aren't supposed to suffer from that

My F150 has SD with 160,000 an hasn't had a single problem. I guess it just differs from one to another.

I expect it to NOT run perfect the first time. I'll have to set the base timing, adjust the fuel pressure. Make sure some of my custom wiring is correct, ect.

That's alright, I like doing that kinda stuff.

blue66tang · Nov 22, 2004

Speed_Demon1965 said:
My F150 has SD with 160,000 an hasn't had a single problem. I guess it just differs from one to another.

I expect it to NOT run perfect the first time. I'll have to set the base timing, adjust the fuel pressure. Make sure some of my custom wiring is correct, ect.

That's alright, I like doing that kinda stuff.

Yep and i like setting the timing, setting the fuel pressure, tuning some air screws, and making some jet changes with my CARB.

400 HP 5.0 With A Stock Cam

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