5.0 Should I Stab In My Distributor At 0 On Damper Or 10 Btdc?

killjoy · Sep 22, 2012

car was running took the dis out now im putting it back in and most of the info im getting off the internet is telling me to get the damper at 10 btdc and put the rotor button on #1 in the cap. when i put it in the first time it was set to 0 on the damper then i timed it with a light it allways just felt weak to me compared to my brothers car which is almost the same as mine.
just wondering what some people might suggest.thanks

89 gt gt40 heads intake, big cam, under drive pulleys, full length headers, non stock throttle body and c&l maf,cold air intake,a9l computer,automatic aod.

jrichker · Sep 22, 2012

It doesn't make much difference, you still need a timing light to get the timing set right. Check the local auto parts store to see if the will rent/loan a timing light.

Putting the distributor back in and setting the timing.

You can forget about anything beyond this point if you don't have access to a timing light. You will never get the timing set right without one.

Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole, crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.

The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.

Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.

Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.

10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.

Note: setting the timing beyond the 10 degree mark will give you a little more low speed acceleration. BUT you will need to run 93 octane to avoid pinging and engine damage. Pinging is very hard to hear at full throttle, so it could be present and you would not hear it.

Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.

ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.

The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.

To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.

The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see that the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.

At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.

Remove the SPOUT connector (do a search if you want a picture of the SPOUT connector) It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT
Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.

Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

Kevin87 · Feb 17, 2013

jrichker said:
It doesn't make much difference, you still need a timing light to get the timing set right. Check the local auto parts store to see if the will rent/loan a timing light.

Dude why dont you make some vidoes of some stuff like this it would be nice to watch this kind of thing for our old pushrod 5.0!

jrichker · Feb 18, 2013

Kevin87 said:
Dude why dont you make some vidoes of some stuff like this it would be nice to watch this kind of thing for our old pushrod 5.0!

I am not at all photogenic. If I found someone everyone would watch, they would be concentrating on her and not what was happening....

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 7, 2013

Was kinda curious, so I thought I'd bump this one back to the top.

I've always set my distributor using the method outlined by @jrichker above, utilizing TDC as my starting point, then advancing the distributor by hand to my optimum ignition timing.

Now....I realize plug and rotor location don't make a difference as long as they both start in line with one and other at the number 1 firing position in say a batch fire, or carbureted fuel system, but SEFI requires that the #1 start position also be synchronized with the PIP signal to correspond proper injector timing sequence. With me so far?

Now here is what has got my mind going. If aligning the rotor, #1 plug position and stator sensor magnet at the TDC event, is it not then moved out of alignment once the distributor is rotated the 10-14 degrees advance after initial set up to achieve optimal ignition timing? The rotor and sensor magnet are no long in alignment with one and other after the distributor is physically advance...which I would think buggers up the injector sequencing?

As such....would it not be better to stab the distributor at 14-degrees advance (or wherever your vehicle runs happiest) of TDC right from the get go, in order to keep all components (rotor, #1 plug and stator sensor magnet) aligned with one and other? I would think doing so would start you at, or at least within a degree or two of optimum ignition timing, which would require minimal manual manipulation of the distributer and ensure the rotor, #1 plug and stator sensor magnet all remained in sync with one and other....thus providing optimum conditions for proper ignition and fuel timing events?

Am I looking at this the wrong way here?

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 9, 2013

So.....no opinions on this one, huh?

jrichker · Nov 14, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
So.....no opinions on this one, huh?

I have been away from reliable Internet connection, so I have been unable to answer your question. The few degrees difference between 10 degrees and 14 degrees isn't going to make any measurable difference to the computers injector timing. Some Ford EFI engines use bank firing injectors that fire 4 injectors at a time and show little difference from the sequential firing injectors except for idle and fuel economy results. See http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=4 for more information.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 15, 2013

jrichker said:
I have been away from reliable Internet connection, so I have been unable to answer your question. The few degrees difference between 10 degrees and 14 degrees isn't going to make any measurable difference to the computers injector timing. Some Ford EFI engines use bank firing injectors that fire 4 injectors at a time and show little difference from the sequential firing injectors except for idle and fuel economy results. See http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=4 for more information.

Between 10 and 14-degree's, no....but what about 0 and 14-degree's? Remember, the recommended method is to stab the distributor is at TDC. From there we physically turn the distributor to 14 advance. That's a long way from the original 0-degree's where the rotor, #1 plug position and stator sensor magnet all lined up.

If lining up the rotor, #1 plug position and stator sensor magnet provides one with the best idle, drivability and economy possible, would it not be beneficial to stab the distributor at 14 BTDC, instead of TDC? That way, you would start out with both the 14-degree's of timing and keep all components in line for optimal fire and injector sequencing?

Are you seeing where I'm coming from?

Chuckman · Nov 15, 2013

ummmm, maybe im missing something cause its early and i just skimmed, but doesnt the fact that the stator rotates with the distributor shaft (and the pickup with the body) and is keyed to the rotor nullify any of that?

jrichker · Nov 15, 2013

I think you missed the point about bank firing of the injectors. In a bank firing injector EFI engine, some of the injectors will pulse while the intake valve for the cylinder they service is closed. That's way more out of sync than the 14-16 degrees advance from TDC when installing the distributor's initial position.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 15, 2013

Chuckman said:
ummmm, maybe im missing something cause its early and i just skimmed, but doesnt the fact that the stator rotates with the distributor shaft (and the pickup with the body) and is keyed to the rotor nullify any of that?

That's what I'm trying to determine? While it's clear to me that the stator and the rotor pickup rotate in unison with one and other with the distributor shaft and that the sensor magnet and #1 spark plug position also rotate in unison with one and other (although separately from the other two)....I question whether or not the 3-points must start in a synchronized position with one and other on the firing position for best possible results? After all, If the spark is set to fire 14-degree's before the stator sends the injector sequencing still in synchronization with the event? It seems to me, that the whole process now takes place 14-degree's after the spark has fired?

The way I see it, they're only truly synchronized when the distributor is initially stabbed and that all points (#1 plug, rotor, magnet and stator) are lined up with one and other, before manually advancing the distributor. The moment the distributor body is rotated clockwise in order to provide the ignition advance, these points are no longer in alignment with one and other?

It seems to me, that it would make sense then to stab the distributor at 14 BTDC (or whatever you optimal ignition timing is), rather than TDC, so that no, or at the very least minimal adjustment beyond that point would be necessary to dial in ignition advance....thus keeping all points in alignment and providing the best relationship between spark and injector sequencing.

jrichker said:
I think you missed the point about bank firing of the injectors. In a bank firing injector EFI engine, some of the injectors will pulse while the intake valve for the cylinder they service is closed. That's way more out of sync than the 14-16 degrees advance from TDC when installing the distributor's initial position.

I understand how it works with bank firing, but that's not the system our 5.0L HO's were set up with. Bank (or batch) firing the injectors is a proven set up, but doesn't have the ability for fine tuning idle and low speed driving characteristics that SEFI has. The excerpts in the article you posted touch on this very point....

� Bank Fire program is not dependant to the firing order of the engine. The injectors do not match the spark order of an the engine equal distribution of fuel atomization inside the intake manifold still exists Idle quality and fuel economy can not be as greatly tuned as Sequential can.

What I'm asking is...rather than setting it up as "good enough and let the computer compensate for the difference", wouldn't we be better served to set it up as precisely as we are able to right off the bat? Would it not make sense to take full advantage of the sequential firing system we were saddled with, instead of treating it like a bank fire set up that we were not?

Chuckman · Nov 16, 2013

Afaik the ecu doesn't care what base timing is, it just adds advance based on how many times that short wave goes by per minute. This why setting it over the stock 10 degrees works in the first place. As long as it starts it doesn't really matter where it's set on the initial stab, and if it really is an issue to you, reset the ecu and it will go from there

mikestang63 · Nov 16, 2013

I mark the lower part of the distributor and the lower intake with a dot of white out, or a marker before I reomove the distributor. That way when I reinstall it @ #1 I just line up the dots and it's in the neighborhood.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 18, 2013

mikestang63 said:
I mark the lower part of the distributor and the lower intake with a dot of white out, or a marker before I reomove the distributor. That way when I reinstall it @ #1 I just line up the dots and it's in the neighborhood.

That's great as long as you know the distributor was stabbed correctly to start with....or you're not doing a H/C/I swap and have to start from scratch. After seeing what the previous owner did to my car, I trust nothing to be in it's correct location. lol

mikestang63 · Nov 18, 2013

LOL. I've dealt with those hacked up nightmare of a car before. I had a guy (kid actually) that butchered up the car so bad doing his "mods", the car was undriveable. He swapped heads and reused the old head gaskets, bolts, pushrods, lifters,etc., and he wondered why the car wouldn't run.

84Ttop · Nov 18, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
Was kinda curious, so I thought I'd bump this one back to the top.

I've always set my distributor using the method outlined by @jrichker above, utilizing TDC as my starting point, then advancing the distributor by hand to my optimum ignition timing.

Now....I realize plug and rotor location don't make a difference as long as they both start in line with one and other at the number 1 firing position in say a batch fire, or carbureted fuel system, but SEFI requires that the #1 start position also be synchronized with the PIP signal to correspond proper injector timing sequence. With me so far?

Now here is what has got my mind going. If aligning the rotor, #1 plug position and stator sensor magnet at the TDC event, is it not then moved out of alignment once the distributor is rotated the 10-14 degrees advance after initial set up to achieve optimal ignition timing? The rotor and sensor magnet are no long in alignment with one and other after the distributor is physically advance...which I would think buggers up the injector sequencing?

As such....would it not be better to stab the distributor at 14-degrees advance (or wherever your vehicle runs happiest) of TDC right from the get go, in order to keep all components (rotor, #1 plug and stator sensor magnet) aligned with one and other? I would think doing so would start you at, or at least within a degree or two of optimum ignition timing, which would require minimal manual manipulation of the distributer and ensure the rotor, #1 plug and stator sensor magnet all remained in sync with one and other....thus providing optimum conditions for proper ignition and fuel timing events?

Am I looking at this the wrong way here?

I think you are starting to get into the territory of rotor phasing which is not a concern at all with the stock TFI setup. I know as far as my FAST SEFI I have a crank and cam signal that both happen at different timing event and a phasable rotor. Crank event for me is 50 degrees before TDC and the Cam event is 60 degrees before TDC. I made an adjustable reluctor in my distributor for cam phasing and use an adjustable crank trigger as well. Once my initial setup is done all of my timing changes happen in the ecu. This is where I think you are going with this, but this is far more complex than the factory TFI. The pip signal happens 8 times with the as the tangs pass the magnet in the dist. housing. so as far as syncing goes it is not as big of on issue. Stabbed at 0 or 14 it makes no difference as the end result is the same. I personally would stab it at 10 to have it close for an easy start up and adjust from there.

Chuckman · Nov 18, 2013

84Ttop said:
I think you are starting to get into the territory of rotor phasing which is not a concern at all with the stock TFI setup. I know as far as my FAST SEFI I have a crank and cam signal that both happen at different timing event and a phasable rotor. Crank event for me is 50 degrees before TDC and the Cam event is 60 degrees before TDC. I made an adjustable reluctor in my distributor for cam phasing and use an adjustable crank trigger as well. Once my initial setup is done all of my timing changes happen in the ecu. This is where I think you are going with this, but this is far more complex than the factory TFI. The pip signal happens 8 times with the as the tangs pass the magnet in the dist. housing. so as far as syncing goes it is not as big of on issue. Stabbed at 0 or 14 it makes no difference as the end result is the same. I personally would stab it at 10 to have it close for an easy start up and adjust from there.

i havent really kept up with your build, so forgive my ignorance, but is this some kind of COP/edis setup? thats the only thing i can think of where phasing (and crank triggers) would be needed, if theres some other app for em i'd like to know just for the hell of it.

one thing to keep in mine about the stock eec-iv is that its really not as smart as people seem to think, which is what makes it as adaptable as it is. You can do a fair bit of tuning on the car without even touching the ecu, something that cant be said of most newer factory ecu's. hell, most newer cars need a tuner just to deal with a cai, where a eec-iv doesnt really care as long as it can adjust enough to make the 02's read right.

84Ttop · Nov 18, 2013

Chuckman said:
i havent really kept up with your build, so forgive my ignorance, but is this some kind of COP/edis setup? thats the only thing i can think of where phasing (and crank triggers) would be needed, if theres some other app for em i'd like to know just for the hell of it.

one thing to keep in mine about the stock eec-iv is that its really not as smart as people seem to think, which is what makes it as adaptable as it is. You can do a fair bit of tuning on the car without even touching the ecu, something that cant be said of most newer factory ecu's. hell, most newer cars need a tuner just to deal with a cai, where a eec-iv doesnt really care as long as it can adjust enough to make the 02's read right.

I couldn't agree with you more here!
As far as my build, its a traditional pro billet modified for a cam pick up with an adjustable reluctor. This drives the xfi 2.0 sequential injection. The timing and phasing is super critical with extreme cylinder pressures and that is the reason for all the atypical parts. We've run over 35 lbs of boost through my sbf in testing some new blower concepts.

liljoe07 · Nov 19, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
That's what I'm trying to determine? While it's clear to me that the stator and the rotor pickup rotate in unison with one and other with the distributor shaft and that the sensor magnet and #1 spark plug position also rotate in unison with one and other (although separately from the other two)....I question whether or not the 3-points must start in a synchronized position with one and other on the firing position for best possible results? After all, If the spark is set to fire 14-degree's before the stator sends the injector sequencing still in synchronization with the event? It seems to me, that the whole process now takes place 14-degree's after the spark has fired?

You bring up a good topic. Injector timing is calculated based off of Load and RPM tables. So just because the #1 vane on the stator passes by the pickup, doesnt mean thats the timing event for the injector. Its just the start of the number sequence. Further more, the #1 vane, is the same for Spark and Injectors, so its not going to get out of sync.

The way I see it, they're only truly synchronized when the distributor is initially stabbed and that all points (#1 plug, rotor, magnet and stator) are lined up with one and other, before manually advancing the distributor. The moment the distributor body is rotated clockwise in order to provide the ignition advance, these points are no longer in alignment with one and other?

Well, the rotor and stator wont be aligned anyways. The vane for #1 is offset to the right.

It seems to me, that it would make sense then to stab the distributor at 14 BTDC (or whatever you optimal ignition timing is), rather than TDC, so that no, or at the very least minimal adjustment beyond that point would be necessary to dial in ignition advance

Either is fine, but dont overthink it. You will wind up in the same place regardless of the two methods mentioned here. One just requires a lesser amount of adjustment. But, the #1 vane will still be crossing the pickup at the same point in crankshaft degrees.

General karthief · Mar 22, 2021

95driftstang said:
Short answer is it doesn’t matter to 99% of people. Spin the rotor, get it close, have some fun. This gentleman is in the top 1% and wants to make sure that he did his best to make this thing hit perfectly.

Gearbanger is concerned about the pick up in the distributor lining up mechanically. That doesn’t matter because the pulse is sent to the injector when the stator contacts the stationary node in the cap. If the stator is not lined up on 1 just spin it until it is as mentioned above.

pulse time/delay can be advanced or retarded by the ECU to optimize fuel trim at the O2 sensor. That’s the whole point of the ECU. So technically once you idle down that’s it your pulse width is timed properly for contact at the node in dist.

Now that we know it’s about pulse after contact of the stator and node

stabbing at 14° is not going to make a difference unless you were stabbing with your stator on the number one node for mechanical precision right....you can’t be sure about that with the cap on now can you... so you have to do your best to line up inside the bottom half of the distributor with a mark where number one node is in the cap. Then stab with the stator held at the mark with your thumb. This in fact is harder than spinning the stator. Bleh bleh bleh

THE ANSWER for the 1% yup... that guy. —/—/—

here’s the peace of mind for the mechanical engineer stuck in your head.

1.do everything as stated above TDC on 1 compression stroke.

2.get dist lined up and stab at 0,10,14 or wherever you want but again as noted above you’re gonna need a timing light to dial it in.

3.After you dial in your timing with the light and you’re happy with where are you stabbed in mechanically, shut the engine off grab a cold soda to cool down your about to be burnt hand or help with the wait and pull that number one plug again.

4. Bump her over to TDC on 1 compression stroke again to confirm you are mechanically on one.

5. Pull the distributor cap off and rotate the stator with your fingers just a little if at all until the stator is exactly where you want it to be. The crank is not moving just the dist gear so timing does not change.
(Stator Contact Note: Some people like to line up initial contact between the node and the stator. I prefer after they have contacted 1/3 of the way through the stator blade. My brother does it right in the middle of node and blade. Does this matter at all? That part I’m not sure. I would think signal at first contact. Anyone know for sure??? Regardless I like good contact as these parts do wear over time and lose material on the arch so 1/3 for me)

NOW you are mechanically on one at the crank and the valves right, your timing is set and stabbed where you want it right, and the stator is mechanically lined up with Precision for immediate contact at stator/node and now you can be absolutely sure of all of those facts.

6.put the plug back in and be 100% assured that you did your best logically...then check your time again.

7. This step is the most important. Go drive the balls off you’re perfectly timed extremely satisfying 5.0 to make sure you don’t want to adjust again.

I always bump it up a little in mine for two reasons 1. every engine dist combo is different at least a little bit and 2. that’s where my sweet spot is I can hear it. When I do my timing I am looking to reduce drag on the crank as well as get everything hitting right. If you listen to your crank throughout your revs and time and Adjust by ear so the crank holds rpm well and drops rpm slowly without much drag/draw than your timing is exactly where it needs to be to make power efficiently. Efficient power is the only power that matters otherwise let somebody else work on your car and really pull out what she has to offer.

Thanks, Mike

You took a very simple procedure and made it unbelievably difficult to understand let alone actually do it. Several of your statements are inaccurate and confusing. Besides the fact this is an old thread but I can forgive that, next time look for the date stamp on the posts.

5.0 Should I Stab In My Distributor At 0 On Damper Or 10 Btdc?

killjoy

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jrichker

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Kevin87

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Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

Gearbanger 101

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jrichker

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Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

Chuckman

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

jrichker

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Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

Chuckman

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

mikestang63

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

mikestang63

84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

Chuckman

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

liljoe07

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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5.0 Should I Stab In My Distributor At 0 On Damper Or 10 Btdc?

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Straight Outta Locash

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

StangNet's favorite TOOL

Straight Outta Locash

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

Straight Outta Locash

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

GTFO you fat, heavy bastard

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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