6th gear and shedding weight

I would love to see a 6 speed tranny as an option to the average GT.

As far as the motor, Ford could do so much more with the small 4.6L and save weight as opposed to going to the 5.4L. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a big motor, but take a look at the new BMW M3 (or M5). They are using a 4.0L V8, na and it is putting out over 400 HP, and it is lighter than their orginal I6. Now that is using technology to its fullest. I just read about it yesterday in one of the popular car mags. Instead of using big displacement which means more weight, which the Mustang doesn't need, how about more power and loosing weight.

GM and Mopar are just putting bigger and bigger engines in their new cars, but the cars are getting heavier as well. If Ford would use technology in stead of brute force, they would rule the affordable pony car world, not just in sales, but at the track too.

I guess all we can do is wish.

The M3 is also a $60k car. Making that kind of N/A power out of that size engine requires some serious engine development. Costly engine development. If Ford continues to improve on the 4.6L, the obviously the cost comes down since it occurs over a longer period of time, but if we were to see that kind of jump that quick in the Mustang, the stripped down deluxe GTs would likely be at or over the $30k threshold.

If Ford wanted to put big stock power (~400) in the Mustang GT immediately and keep MSRP approximately the same, they'd have no choice but to bump up displacement. And they'd still have a hard time making the 400hp at cost.

While 600 lbs lighter would be great, I think thats a bit unrealistic. Lets aim to bring it back to about 3200 lbs, then go from there.

You've clearly never had to pay to have a BMW serviced. The whole raison d'etre of the American V8 is that it uses cheap displacement to compensate for unnecessary complication. As soon as you add complication, you add major cost and more importantly your servicing bills double or triple. Cost of replacing the engine would go up, your insurance would go up....

You are both right. Technology is expensive to develop and maintain, but the days of cheap fuel are gone. Hey, I love power and the easy and cheap way is to just increase the displacement, but the days of big displacement engines are numbered. We will be paying around $5/gallon for gas in the next few years and the overall efficiency of big cars with big engines won't support high gas prices. Sure the people with lots of money don't care and they will still buy the luxery vehicles, but if Ford wants to keep an affordable muscle/sports car in their lineup, they would be better off to develop a high tech engine or some kind of hybrid version to get better overall efficiency. You have three options to go fast, more power same weight, same power less weight, or a combination of the two. Right now, GM and mopar are going in the wrong direction with their "muscle cars" with these big engines. That won't last. Who cares if they can keep the Mustang under $30,000 if the people who would buy them can't afford the gas to run them. I am not saying Ford has to drop a new engine right now, but they should be working on it.

Like I said before, all I can do is hope.

600 lbs is kind of difficult to shed and maintain all the smog gear, air bags, sound deadening material, larger interior room, bigger wheels, better stereos, power everything, stiffer frame, crash ratings, heavier engine, and many other things that make me like my S197 better than my fox. It would be grand to not sacrafice all of that stuff and make the car 500lbs lighter, but I would take an engine that could make 50 more hp and get the same gas mileage. I guess that might be a 6 speed and a little more displacement through increased bore size.

07BLKSTANG-GT said:

Ford should seriously consider adding the 6 gear manny tranny as an option for the new GT and shed at least 600lbs. The 5.4L DOHC should also be added as an option. Well the 5.4 3V SOHC would be good enough.

I think all three of the above combination would make the Mustang nearly unstopable and I think Ford can do it for under $30K. What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

This is the exact reason the GT500 is over 3900 LBS!!!!! Creature comforts PLUS 5.4 PLUS S/C PLUS 6 spd trans. If the current car would bump up 50 HP and lose 50 or so LBS, that would be a huge gain. (Adding the tune/CAI and a few other bolt ons while removing the rear seat and sound deadening material would almost obtain that goal.) Of course for those of us out there with the Shaker1000 or the aftermarket subs in the trunk defeat that purpose

LV51FER said:

You've clearly never had to pay to have a BMW serviced. The whole raison d'etre of the American V8 is that it uses cheap displacement to compensate for unnecessary complication. As soon as you add complication, you add major cost and more importantly your servicing bills double or triple. Cost of replacing the engine would go up, your insurance would go up....

Click to expand...

I agree. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping their head around this idea, and automatically consider the larger, simpler engines as "crude".

Take my bike for example. I have an '06 Buell XB12Ss, which (as the name implies) has a 1200cc engine. There are import bikes out there with half the displacement that generate the same amount of power. So, a lot of other sportbike people think the Buells are "underpowered" for their displacement. However, the Buell engines are crazy simple to work on, and require nothing but oil changes and the occasional TPS reset (which has been eliminated for '08, BTW). AND they actually get better MPG, and don't require catalytic converters to meet EPA regulations.

Technology can be nice, but technology for technology's sake can be more trouble than it's worth.

~SM

Swordsman said:

I agree. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping their head around this idea, and automatically consider the larger, simpler engines as "crude".

Take my bike for example. I have an '06 Buell XB12Ss, which (as the name implies) has a 1200cc engine. There are import bikes out there with half the displacement that generate the same amount of power. So, a lot of other sportbike people think the Buells are "underpowered" for their displacement. However, the Buell engines are crazy simple to work on, and require nothing but oil changes and the occasional TPS reset (which has been eliminated for '08, BTW). AND they actually get better MPG, and don't require catalytic converters to meet EPA regulations.

Technology can be nice, but technology for technology's sake can be more trouble than it's worth.

~SM

Click to expand...

I hear ya! I have a '00 Suzuki Bandit 1200S.

Don't confuse better technology with more complicated. I use the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method when developing technology, and for the most part it has served me well. Most of the time, simpler is better, but people usually associate better technology with complicated which is not always the case.

I didn't say for Ford to put in a BMW engine, but to use better technology in their engines.

Swordsman said:

and require nothing but oil changes and the occasional TPS reset \

Click to expand...

did you have to do a TPS report after that?

sorry, i couldn't resist.

06' 1000 RR



maybe we need to start a thread

lets also keep in mind to run a higher power level n/a like those bmw m's, they run a much higher compression ratio. that would kill anyone's ideas of supercharging their engines without having to go inside and put in a low compression forged bottom end to handle the boost.

500lbs? That would require a completely different car. Maybe if the Mustang had gone the small chassis route. Like a Soltice or something. But then that would suck.

As for engine complexity and cost. A replacement GM LS7 motor runs around $8000. The GT500 motor runs around $12,000 and a replacement Mercedes Amg V8 runs around $52,000.

So there's a reason for good old American push rod motors you can see.

Mr_Q said:

500lbs? That would require a completely different car. Maybe if the Mustang had gone the small chassis route. Like a Soltice or something. But then that would suck.

As for engine complexity and cost. A replacement GM LS7 motor runs around $8000. The GT500 motor runs around $12,000 and a replacement Mercedes Amg V8 runs around $52,000.

So there's a reason for good old American push rod motors you can see.

Click to expand...

While you are right about the price of these engines, you also have to remember that all three of these are handbuilt, limited production engines. It would cost a good bit less to have them produced on a larger, automated scale. But yet they would still be fairly expensive.

07BLKSTANG-GT said:

Ford should seriously consider adding the 6 gear manny tranny as an option for the new GT and shed at least 600lbs

Click to expand...

The 6 spd tranny is available now ///

but sheading 600lbs ???

If it was even possible, I figure that we would have heard about it already.


:Track: racers are always looking to lighten up things ....

anyway,,,, until then, I'd suggest leaving the 'little lady' at home

the 6 spd is only available on the GT500. not the regular GT, which is what he wants it on.

stangdude2000 said:

the 6 spd is only available on the GT500. not the regular GT, which is what he wants it on.

Click to expand...

In the great tradition of American Hot Rodding - I say put your money where you want it $$$


A Tremec T-56 6 Speed Transmission sells for a basic $2675.00 ///



happy hot rodding

shooterm1 said:

The 6 spd tranny is available now ///

but sheading 600lbs ???

If it was even possible, I figure that we would have heard about it already.


:Track: racers are always looking to lighten up things ....

anyway,,,, until then, I'd suggest leaving the 'little lady' at home

Click to expand...

rpburnette said:

I would love to see a 6 speed tranny as an option to the average GT.

As far as the motor, Ford could do so much more with the small 4.6L and save weight as opposed to going to the 5.4L. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a big motor, but take a look at the new BMW M3 (or M5). They are using a 4.0L V8, na and it is putting out over 400 HP, and it is lighter than their orginal I6. Now that is using technology to its fullest. I just read about it yesterday in one of the popular car mags. Instead of using big displacement which means more weight, which the Mustang doesn't need, how about more power and loosing weight.

GM and Mopar are just putting bigger and bigger engines in their new cars, but the cars are getting heavier as well. If Ford would use technology in stead of brute force, they would rule the affordable pony car world, not just in sales, but at the track too.

I guess all we can do is wish.

Click to expand...

On topic as for the engines:

I don't believe that engines designed and built by BMW/MB and Audi should even be brought into the same conversation for comparison to Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Perhaps Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan would be a better comparison.

Simply looking into the actual design specifications of the E60 M5 using the S85 5.0 Liter V10 engine with VANOS, 10 individual electronically controlled throttles, 40 valves, all-aluminum engine and aluminum chassis with their 7-speed SMG III transmission does not even warrant comparison, neither does the $83,000 price tag. Add this to what LV51FER mentioned: unless you are making $150,000+ a year and only keep the car for as long as the warranty is in effect, Sweet!

APPLES TO ORANGES in the automotive engineering world.

If you want to buy a used german car without a warranty - THINK AGAIN - nightmare for the average-intermediate DIY mechanic. The Audi A4 Quattro we had with the 30 valve 2.8L V-6 was a beautiful car, but God forbid the day it hit 100,000 miles and we started trying to locate parts and perform maintenance. Simply trying to perform a timing belt change with only $300 worth of parts requires removal of the entire front bumper, radiator, water pump, tensionors, cam shaft seals, etc. So this is an entire day worth of labor for an adequate DIY person or $2,000 for the labor at the dealer or a german specialty shop, because no other shops in town want to play the timing belt change game. Oh, did I mention this needs to be done @ 80,000 miles. Timing chains FTMFW. - and located within reasonable access this side of hell would be nice. Even the V-8 Audi with a timing chain has it in the REAR of the engine.

All those "convenience and comfort" package items are AWESOME when they stop working. The lock cylinder actuator pump went bad on us, so we pull it out to go to the pick and pull to try and find one - NOOOOOOO the car won't start without it - integrated into the anti-theft (used rebuilt unit $500 that does not include the individual door mechanism - just the central actuator. hahahahha).

The beautiful Bose Concert surround - AWESOME - until the head until toasts. Some may ask.... Well, can't you just replace it with an aftermarket unit Noooooooooooooo not if you ever want to be able to run the VAG-COM scanner to pull error codes because the Bose head unit is INTEGRATED into the VAG system which requires the stock head unit port pins.

A/C starts to act up. A/C clutch - cool we can handle that - wander down to the dealer - $1,300 for the unit or $547 for the clutch assembly.

So boys and girls, drool over those german engineered engines and remember that those toys come with a hefty price tag in the beginning, middle and end. I can appreciate the complexity of the designs, but loath the complication for the average home mechanic.

For every engine advancement in the name of fuel efficiency or emissions we lose our ability to choose to work on and/or modify our cars. We become a slave to "the man" or we all go the ASE school to keep abreast of the technology. Give me old school push-rod or give me........... a bike or some tennis shoes.

Nice thread...carry on.