98 gt keeps cranking even after the key is out. HELP!!!!
- Thread starter robocop07
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patman0911
Founding Member
Let me make sure I understand...
The car is cranking with the out and your foot is off the clutch pedal but if you push the clutch pedal to the floor it stops?
Very wierd - let me look and see if I see anything that makes sense.
The car is cranking with the out and your foot is off the clutch pedal but if you push the clutch pedal to the floor it stops?
Very wierd - let me look and see if I see anything that makes sense.
patman0911
Founding Member
That should read "cranking with the key out"
Sorry, on an iPod and it's a pain to post error free and I can't edit
Sorry, on an iPod and it's a pain to post error free and I can't edit
patman0911
Founding Member
What year car is this and what engine?
Had you done anything to the car prior to this? (You didn't just convert the car from automatic to manual, did you
)
It looks like power from the ignition switch goes to the clutch interrupt switch and from there to the PATS module and from there to the starter solenoid. The clutch switch would have to fail in such a way as to work backwards and the ignition switch would have to also stick in the start position and I'm not sure how first would happen and the odds of both happening simultaneously seems improbable. My diagram is labled as 96-98 so I don't know if some of these functions were combined into a control module on later cars, which would be more likely to fail in bizarre ways.
Hopefully, someone with more detailed info and knowledge will be along soon.
Had you done anything to the car prior to this? (You didn't just convert the car from automatic to manual, did you
)It looks like power from the ignition switch goes to the clutch interrupt switch and from there to the PATS module and from there to the starter solenoid. The clutch switch would have to fail in such a way as to work backwards and the ignition switch would have to also stick in the start position and I'm not sure how first would happen and the odds of both happening simultaneously seems improbable. My diagram is labled as 96-98 so I don't know if some of these functions were combined into a control module on later cars, which would be more likely to fail in bizarre ways.
Hopefully, someone with more detailed info and knowledge will be along soon.
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
What if the ignition switch has failed and is stuck in the "start" position? Then releasing the clutch would interrupt the voltage to the starter solenoid thus stopping the starter.
There is a White (W) wire from the ignition switch to the clutch safety switch. Suggest testing for +12 volts at the clutch safety switch with key off. If true this proves the ignition switch is bad.
Could disconnect the solenoid wire (BK/W) at the starter. This will stop the starter from running and allow testing to be done without risk.
There is a White (W) wire from the ignition switch to the clutch safety switch. Suggest testing for +12 volts at the clutch safety switch with key off. If true this proves the ignition switch is bad.
Could disconnect the solenoid wire (BK/W) at the starter. This will stop the starter from running and allow testing to be done without risk.
patman0911
Founding Member
I'm confused by the clutch behavior. If the ignition switch is stuck in start position then it still shouldn't crank until you push the clutch pedal in - it should do nothing with the pedal out.
trinity_gt
10 Year Member
Disconnect the battery and leave it disconnected. Do NOT repeat the "test" of allowing it to try to crank against the brakes with the clutch out: You'll burn something up and may cause a fire.
Sounds like the starter itself or more specifically, the solenoid on top of the starter has jammed. When you turn the ignition switch, you apply power to the solenoid. The solenoid pulls the starter drive out and engages the gear on the ring of the flywheel/flex plate and it also completes a heavy-duty connection that connects the battery positive cable to the starter motor proper. If that plunger in the solenoid has jammed in this position the starter drive will always be engaged and the motor will always try to run.
Starter motors can draw immense current (which is one reason why the battery cable to it is so fat.) When you stall the motor by having it fight the brakes, you increase the current draw through the motor windings. This current causes heat proportional to the square of the current flow in the cables and starter itself. When you said "it also just burned up a battery connector and a cable", this is because of that. So don't do that anymore.
Pull the starter out and check the solenoid.
Sounds like the starter itself or more specifically, the solenoid on top of the starter has jammed. When you turn the ignition switch, you apply power to the solenoid. The solenoid pulls the starter drive out and engages the gear on the ring of the flywheel/flex plate and it also completes a heavy-duty connection that connects the battery positive cable to the starter motor proper. If that plunger in the solenoid has jammed in this position the starter drive will always be engaged and the motor will always try to run.
Starter motors can draw immense current (which is one reason why the battery cable to it is so fat.) When you stall the motor by having it fight the brakes, you increase the current draw through the motor windings. This current causes heat proportional to the square of the current flow in the cables and starter itself. When you said "it also just burned up a battery connector and a cable", this is because of that. So don't do that anymore.
Pull the starter out and check the solenoid.
patman0911
Founding Member
Ok that makes a little more sense.
If it's in neutral does it keep cranking indefinitely with your foot off the clutch? Is that why you were putting it in gear and standing on the brake?
It sounds like the clutch switch had failed in the closed position or was bypassed at some point - that could've happened at any time and you might not ever have noticed unless you tried to start in gear accidentally.
The main problem is the spontaneous cranking, which sounds like the ignition switch more than likely.
Does the car start and run while this is happening, or does it just crank without firing? If the switch is stuck in start then the car should fire and run as long as the key is nearby to for the PATS.
Another possibility is that the starter solenoid is stuck on which would mean it would crank as long as there's power from the battery, independant of the key or clutch switch.
Do the checks wmburns suggests and see what you find.
If it's in neutral does it keep cranking indefinitely with your foot off the clutch? Is that why you were putting it in gear and standing on the brake?
It sounds like the clutch switch had failed in the closed position or was bypassed at some point - that could've happened at any time and you might not ever have noticed unless you tried to start in gear accidentally.
The main problem is the spontaneous cranking, which sounds like the ignition switch more than likely.
Does the car start and run while this is happening, or does it just crank without firing? If the switch is stuck in start then the car should fire and run as long as the key is nearby to for the PATS.
Another possibility is that the starter solenoid is stuck on which would mean it would crank as long as there's power from the battery, independant of the key or clutch switch.
Do the checks wmburns suggests and see what you find.
patman0911
Founding Member
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
I am not sure this is a starter solenoid problem. If the starter solenoid was stuck in the "engaged" position, then why would it quit when the clutch pedal is let out? Suspect the starter disengages because the clutch safety switch interrupts the current to the starter solenoid. The starter continues to run for a very sort period because of the pull-in/hold feature of the solenoid.
Regardless, it is easy to confirm what the problem is with some tests. Test for +12 volts at the starter solenoid. Test for +12 volts at the clutch safety switch. Post the results.
To the OP, how much of this do you want to fix yourself?
If it turns out to be the ignition switch and you wish to drive the car to the shop, here is how to do it. Make sure the parking brake is set and the transmission is in neutral. Disconnect the BK/W wire at the clutch safety switch.
Put the ignition into the "run" position. Use a jumper wire from the battery plus(+) to the BK/W terminal. Once touched, the starter will engage. Once the motor fires, remove the jumper.
With the BK/W wire removed from the clutch safety switch, you will not have to worry about the starter attempting to engage while driving to the shop.
Or the solenoid wire can be removed and the car bump started.
If you wish to fix this yourself, start by disconneting the solenoid wire at the starter. This will allow work to proceed without risk.
The ignition switch can be removed fairly easily. However, it seams silly to post the procedure unless it is needed.
Also, consider getting a Chilton's service manual. It is well worth $20.
Regardless, it is easy to confirm what the problem is with some tests. Test for +12 volts at the starter solenoid. Test for +12 volts at the clutch safety switch. Post the results.
To the OP, how much of this do you want to fix yourself?
If it turns out to be the ignition switch and you wish to drive the car to the shop, here is how to do it. Make sure the parking brake is set and the transmission is in neutral. Disconnect the BK/W wire at the clutch safety switch.
Put the ignition into the "run" position. Use a jumper wire from the battery plus(+) to the BK/W terminal. Once touched, the starter will engage. Once the motor fires, remove the jumper.
With the BK/W wire removed from the clutch safety switch, you will not have to worry about the starter attempting to engage while driving to the shop.
Or the solenoid wire can be removed and the car bump started.
If you wish to fix this yourself, start by disconneting the solenoid wire at the starter. This will allow work to proceed without risk.
The ignition switch can be removed fairly easily. However, it seams silly to post the procedure unless it is needed.
Also, consider getting a Chilton's service manual. It is well worth $20.
patman0911
Founding Member
I don't think it quit cranking when he let the clutch out, I think he was trying to kill it by stalling it which probably only hastened the burning up of wires and melting of connectors. He's lucky a fire didn't start!
He'll have to clarify that point as it's pivotal to which direction to look - switch or solenoid.
He'll have to clarify that point as it's pivotal to which direction to look - switch or solenoid.
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
I assumed the car was in neutral. I never considered that someone would let the starter stall into a car "in gear" and not mention it.
Live and learn.
In any case, a few tests already mentioned will nail the problem down.
patman0911
Founding Member
The impression I got from post #9 was that he was putting it in gear, holding the brakes and dropping the clutch to try and stop the motor from turning and that the clutch interrupt switch wasn't having an affect - I 'm still not 100% sure that's what he meant though 
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
Bad starter solenoid. Replace the starter. The solenoid is best serviced with the starter as a unit.
Great call Patman and KT.
The top bolt is hard to get to. Do you want to change yourself or take to shop?
If take to shop, disconnect battery, put the car in neutral and set the parking brake. Remove the large main wire from the starter and then reconnect the battery. Put the key in the run position and touch the heavy red wire to the starter stud. Likely to spark some. Wear gloves in case the wire gets hot. Be careful to not let the cable ground out.
When the motor fires, wrap the end of the wire in tape and drive to the shop.
Or remove the main starter wire, wrap in tape, and bump start the car.
Of course this assumes that the starter will disengage from the flywheel. If not, the car will have to be towed or the starter changed.
If you need help on how to remove the starter yourself, let us know and will post the procedure. It is very difficult to reach the top starter bolt. So if you do not have a 13mm flex socket and several very long extensions, unlikely to be able to access the top bolt yourself.
Fit the long extensions through the k-member. Put the socket on the top bolt by feel. Works best to have a buddy turn the ratchet while someone holds the socket on the top bolt.
Good luck.
Great call Patman and KT.
The top bolt is hard to get to. Do you want to change yourself or take to shop?
If take to shop, disconnect battery, put the car in neutral and set the parking brake. Remove the large main wire from the starter and then reconnect the battery. Put the key in the run position and touch the heavy red wire to the starter stud. Likely to spark some. Wear gloves in case the wire gets hot. Be careful to not let the cable ground out.
When the motor fires, wrap the end of the wire in tape and drive to the shop.
Or remove the main starter wire, wrap in tape, and bump start the car.
Of course this assumes that the starter will disengage from the flywheel. If not, the car will have to be towed or the starter changed.
If you need help on how to remove the starter yourself, let us know and will post the procedure. It is very difficult to reach the top starter bolt. So if you do not have a 13mm flex socket and several very long extensions, unlikely to be able to access the top bolt yourself.
Fit the long extensions through the k-member. Put the socket on the top bolt by feel. Works best to have a buddy turn the ratchet while someone holds the socket on the top bolt.
Good luck.
i agree that its in the starter/solenoid but not goin to exclude the clutch switch. I am a motorcycle tech by profession and thats what i would check had it been a bike. Take it for what its worth i guess, sry i don't have a wiring diagram or i could assist u further after studying i bit. Good Luck. and for personal ref is the switch 2 or 3 wire or other?
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