Fuel 98 Mustang No Power to Any fuel related items

[VincentM]

Thanks for bringing me in everyone!

I have a 98 base manual. Long story short I bought it off a friend to help him under the assumption it needed a fuel pump. He was driving it 3 hours before this happened. Well a new pump didn’t change anything. Checked power to pump, inertia switch, CCRM pump pin, all nothing. Pump fuse is hot. Anybody know where to go next?

Edit: Car runs on ether and stayed running with continuous spray. I’m pretty sure it’s narrowed down to either the PCM (least likely), bad wire, or something along those lines. I’ve already tried hot wiring pump and car wouldn’t start. Anybody know where a common wire rub spot is at that has connections to the fuel relay? I’m at a total loss here and would appreciate help!

 

[wmburns]

Did you check ALL of the fused in the Battery Junction box? Why is this important? Because some model years that have an error in the owner's manual. The PCM and fuel pump fuse are labeled backwards.

Exactly which pins on the CCRM were tested for power? Is there confirmed always on power at CCRM pin #11 (Y)?

What happens if CCRM pin #18 (LB/O) is grounded? This should cause the fuel pump relay to "latch" and supply power to CCRM pin #5 (DG/Y).

Confirm the anti-theft (PATS) has "proved out" at initial key on.

Has "noid" light cranking testing of the fuel injectors been done?

OBTW, the fact that the motor runs on starter fluid "proves" a TON of stuff.

1996+ Crank with no start check list

1997 mustang wont ignite

Hello lets start with I have a 97 mustang gt v8 standard I had new engine transmission ect put all new well last month i shut the car off and had no power at all bought a new battery and alternator got all power back but it wont ignite brought to mechnic for a month all sensors codes ect are fine

www.allfordmustangs.com

 

[VincentM]

I didn’t not check all of the fuses in the box for power under the hood, but I did visually inspect them and none were bad.

I tested all pins for power if I remember correctly there should be 5 “hot” prongs? Well I had 4 and the fuel pump relay one was the not hot one.

Also do you have a blown up diagram of the CCRM and the prongs you’re speaking of?

Lastly the “OBTW, the fact that the motor runs on starter fluid "proves" a TON of stuff.” Not sure of that’s just sarcasm or truth.

 

[wmburns]

Lastly the “OBTW, the fact that the motor runs on starter fluid "proves" a TON of stuff.” Not sure of that’s just sarcasm or truth.

Truth. Think about. If the motor runs on starting fluid it "proves" that almost all of the PCM is working except for fuel pump control.

IMO if there's no power to the CCRM pin #11 (Y), then looking for a possible PCM problem is pointless.

I gave you the pin outs and wire colors that are needed to test the CCRM. With that information you can:

• Verify input power to the CCRM pin #11 (Y)
• Test the internal CCRM relay function by grounding the relay control CCRM pin #18 (LB/O). This is the same thing that the PCM does to enable the fuel pump
• Verify that after latching, there is output power from the CCRM towards the fuel pump CCRM pin #5 (DG/Y).

What to do next depends upon the specific tests results above.

 

[VincentM]

If there’s no power to pin #11 does that mean PCM is trash?

Do you have a photo you could mark up the pins that I need to test? The car is about 25 minutes away from me so I wanna make sure I can do it all and check everything.

and

When you say ground pin #18 you mean just run a wire to the frame or some other?

 

[wmburns]

If there’s no power to pin #11 does that mean PCM is trash?

No! It means that there's a blown BJB fuel pump fuse or there's a wiring fault between the BJB and the CCRM

Do you have a photo you could mark up the pins that I need to test? The car is about 25 minutes away from me so I wanna make sure I can do it all and check everything.

If interested in getting a full copy of the Ford Service manual with Wiring diagrams I may be able to help. PM if interested.

When you say ground pin #18 you mean just run a wire to the frame or some other?

Yes. Take a short wire or a test lead. Put one side on a known good ground and back probe the correct terminal. Using something thin like a T-pin can make it easier.

 

[VincentM]

Yes. Take a short wire or a test lead. Put one side on a known good ground and back probe the correct terminal. Using something thin like a T-pin can make it easier.

When you are talking about this could I use a multimeter or a lest light for this? Or is there some other way to do this.

Do you by chance just have the layout for the CCRM pins I need to test? I don’t need the full work up seeing as I’m not keeping this car very long.

 

[VincentM]

Yes. Take a short wire or a test lead. Put one side on a known good ground and back probe the correct terminal. Using something thin like a T-pin can make it easier.

When you are talking about this could I use a multimeter or a lest light for this? Or is there some other way to do this.

 

[wmburns]

I have to figure that you don't understand the concept of HOW a ground controlled circuit works. Here's some information to help you understand the WHAT and WHY of the test, then what I'm asking you to do will make perfect sense. IMO you are more likely to perform the tests correctly and safely if you understand how the pieces fit together.

Remember that the CCRM is at it's heart a combined relay for multiple devices (PCM, fuel pump, Cooling fan, AC clutch).

Understanding Relays, part 3: Troubleshooting
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2017/09/07/understanding-relays-part-3

Ground Side vs Power Side Switching -EricTheCarGuy

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlS56LkAukE

Troubleshooting relays

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3jvQNnMq4A

 

[VincentM]

Correct me if im wrong, but what I am understanding here is that you want me to leave the CCRM plugged in and using a multimeter (what I saw used) ground it out somewhere I know is a solid ground, use the power prong and stick it into the CCRM pins you listed above checking for power/listen for the relays.

• Verify input power to the CCRM pin #11 (Y)
• Test the internal CCRM relay function by grounding the relay control CCRM pin #18 (LB/O). This is the same thing that the PCM does to enable the fuel pump
• Verify that after latching, there is output power from the CCRM towards the fuel pump CCRM pin #5 (DG/Y).

Now I've watched the videos above and I kind of understand what you're saying, but having never dealt with this before I still cant wrap my head totally around it. After watching the video showing how to test a relay I realize I'm probably going to need a couple sets of alligator clipped wires or something of that sort to test all of this. From what I'm reading I can test to see if the relays are clicking but I cant check for power supply due to not having extra cables and stuff to check the power. But I should add I've swapped the CCRM out for a junkyard one and same problem. I only heard one relay clicking and im assuming it was for the PCM because when it clicked the CE light flashed during the click for a split second. This happens for both of them.

Forgive my ignorance I'm just trying to figure this out its beginning to drive me insane.

 

[wmburns]

From what I'm reading I can test to see if the relays are clicking but I cant check for power supply due to not having extra cables and stuff to check the power.

Go back and re-read post #4. With that information you can:

• Verify input power to the CCRM pin #11 (Y)
• Test the internal CCRM relay function by grounding the relay control CCRM pin #18 (LB/O). This is the same thing that the PCM does to enable the fuel pump
• Verify that after latching, there is output power from the CCRM towards the fuel pump CCRM pin #5 (DG/Y).

What to do next depends upon the specific tests results above.

Since I gave you the input power, control pins, and the OUTPUT pins it's most certainly possible to verify that there is power OUT of the CCRM on pin #5. A test light or VOM can be used to verify power. Note, I prefer to use a test light because it will "load" the circuit.

Regarding your question about if the test is done with the CCRM in place. Yes the CCRM needs to be in place as the CCRM is a relay. If a relay is removed from the circuit it's not possible to test the output of that relay.

And yes it will be necessary to back probe the connectors. For that something long and thin is often helpful. But a cut up paper clip could be used in place of a T-pin. The idea is to use something thin enough so it won't damage the connector.

From the "how a ground start" circuit works, do you not see that only a scrap piece of wire is needed to simulate the method used by the PCM to active the fuel pump. No need for multiple VOM's or test lights. But having test leads with alligator clips on each end can make things easier. Your call.

I try to discourage the people I help from "assuming" that a "replaced" part must be good. I prefer to use tests that are designed to verify the part itself AND the inputs and outputs that are needed for the part to actually work. Go back to your opening post. How has the "part changing" method of trouble shooting worked so far for you and the prior owner?

I'm confident that armed with accurate and complete test results we will be able to focus the next trouble shooting steps. Hopefully to arrive at a "fix".

NOTE, not all CCRM's are the SAME! There are differences between the model years and motors. So are you positive that the correct CCRM has been used for the application?

 

[VincentM]

Alright. I’ve had somebody time to think about what I wanna on. You’ve given me everything I need in words but I just can’t visualize how you’d do it specifically for this scenario.

Now as I said before forgive my ignorance I’ve never dealt with something like this before.

Now to ground the relay control could I just hook the end of a test light to it and touch pin 18 to 11 or vice versa? Or do something like paper clip into slot and alligator clip it to a nearby ground and once it clicks use the test light into pin 5?

Edit: while doing what I asked above should I have the ignition on or have some turn it on?

 

[wmburns]

Edit: while doing what I asked above should I have the ignition on or have some turn it on?

The fuel pump circuit is on an "always on" circuit. But the relay pilot duty circuit is only hot with the ignition on. So the relay control grounding test needs to be done with the key on.

 

[VincentM]

now to ground the relay control could I just hook the end of a test light to it and touch pin 18 to 11 or vice versa? Or do something like paper clip into slot and alligator clip it to a nearby ground and once it clicks use the test light into pin 5?

Before I do anything is this what I’m suppose to do?

 

[wmburns]

Before I do anything is this what I’m suppose to do?

Tests in order with the CCRM installed. Back probe the terminals with something thin (like a T-pin).

• Verify input power to the CCRM pin #11 (Y)
• Test the internal CCRM relay function by grounding the relay control CCRM pin #18 (LB/O). This is the same thing that the PCM does to enable the fuel pump. You should hear the relay click (latch).
• Verify that after latching, there is output power from the CCRM towards the fuel pump CCRM pin #5 (DG/Y) while the relay is latched.

What to do next depends upon the specific tests results above.

To test for POWER. Put the test light pigtail on a known good ground. At the CCRM, the black wires are grounds. Probe the terminal to be tested for POWER. The test light will light with power present.

The tests are in a logical order. Think about it. It does no good first to test a relay IF there's no power into the relay. IF there's no power into the relay, then the problem HAS to be upstream.

If you still don't feel comfortable perhaps some consideration should be given to bringing in the services of a professional

 

[VincentM]

So I believe I’ve come to the conclusion everything wrong it pointing to a bad PCM, if I swapped it with a junkyard one would I have to have anything reprogrammed it wouldn’t it just plug and play? Also what years could I pull a PCM from?

 

[wmburns]

Try searching at car-part.com for compatible salvaged yard PCM's. The salvage industry is very good with interchange data. This may help with locating a unit close by.

Or try carcomputerexchange.com

Also many auto parts stores sell re-man'ed PCM's.

Here's some information on a possible DIY PATS reprogramming solution.

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB

While working on your car have you ever wanted: to find an ODB2 operational PID value (say fuel pressure or MAF)? How about graph a PID value over time? Or compare multiple PID's over time? Access a bi-directional PCM control such as test a...

www.stangnet.com

Without the requested specific test results being posted I can't help you regarding if this is the right call or not. For my own part I would want to know that everything else has been ruled out before replacing a PCM. This would give a high degree of assurance the right call has been made.

Food for thought. Based upon the limited feedback posted within this thread consider that the PCM works well enough to run the motor on starting fluid. That means that the PCM has to be aware of a CKP signal and have control of spark. We don't know IF the PCM has control of the fuel pump and/or the fuel injectors(no "noid" tests of the fuel injectors).

Also wanted to confirm that the anti-theft system (PATS) has "proved out" during initial key on testing.

With an ODB2 scanner it's also possible to verify the other "inputs" to the PCM. An ODB2 scanner with bi-directional support can also "command" the PCM to activate supported systems further proving that the PCM is processing data AND has control of it's systems.

1996+ Crank with no start check list

1997 mustang wont ignite

Hello lets start with I have a 97 mustang gt v8 standard I had new engine transmission ect put all new well last month i shut the car off and had no power at all bought a new battery and alternator got all power back but it wont ignite brought to mechnic for a month all sensors codes ect are fine

www.allfordmustangs.com

Hopefully you will update this tread so that others can learn from your experience (good, bad, or ugly). Good luck.