98gt versus 89 5.0

[rock4451]

96-98 gt is about as quick as a fox GT or a 94-95 GT


I agree they were not that fast but it's not like stock 5.0's were 12 second cars





by the block that holds 800 do you mean a teksid block... stock 4.6 block can handle over 800 horsepower but the stock rotating assy can't a teksid can handle a LOT

Block strength is not a issue with modulars

BUT with that said the 5.0 is still cheaper to modify and it's a lot better platform for a N/A build

i'm not sure what block he was referencing, yeah the teksid's can hold upwards of 1200 horsepower...

 

[Mustang5L5]

However I will never again own a fox as my ONLY means of transportation.

+1


I could never DD a fox again.

Hell, I'm even getting to the point I could never DD a Mustang again.
My G35 has spoiled me.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

and the mod motors are expensive as hell to modify

10-years-ago perhaps, but most of the bolt on parts for the 2V mod motors now are no more and in some cases actually less than the 5.0L stuff.

i'm talking overall. you may be able to find a few here and there that are the same or cheaper, but if you look at every part, the 5.0 is going to be cheaper to do the same # of mods...

But you're assuming you need to do the same number of mods in the first place.

The stock PI engines will breath well into the 400hp range without even removing the heads or lower intake,

On the other hand, you've got replace the entire top end of the engine on a 5.0L OHV to see those power levels.



Adding a throttle body/spacer to a near stock 5.0L OHV is pretty much a waste of time and money, but its good for a solid 10-12hp on a Modular.



One of the first breathing improvements need on the intake side of an '87-'95 5.0L OHV engine is to upgrade the crappy stock 55mm MAF,

The mod motors utilize an 80mm unit from the factory that doesn't generally need to be touched into well into the 350-400hp range.


Headers on a 5.0L OHV engine are manditory for anyone wanting to make over 250hp,

The stock Manifolds on a 4.6L SOHC engine flow well into the 400hp range.


Mod motor rods and pistons suck and aren't good for much more than about 450hp,

The stock 302 OHV block sucks and isn't good for much more than about 550hp.



Each has their little niches. To say one is really any better, or more or less expensive to mod than the other is generalizing.

 

[Mustang5L5]

I agree, 2V stuff has come way down in price. You could build up a nice 2V for not a whole lot more money than a 302.

Stock 99-04 2V, Set of cams, Plenum, TB, CAI, Long tubes and exhaust and you'll be comfortably over 300HP crank

 

[rock4451]

gearbanger - what parts of the mod motor are cheaper? i am just curious, not saying you're wrong

 

[Gearbanger 101]

gearbanger - what parts of the mod motor are cheaper? i am just curious, not saying you're wrong

Throttle bodies for instance. Where you need both a throttle body and spacer for a 5.0L, you need only the throttle body for the Modular.

Exhaust parts are about the same.

The only parts that really stand out cost wise are cam swaps, since you've got to swap 2, or in the DOHC's case 4, to the OHV's. That being said, people have made over 500hp with the stock SOCH's and over 600hp with the DOHC's (with a power adder of course).

Other areas where money is saved are stated in my previous post above. In some cases, where parts aren't necessarily cheaper per say, they may actually not even be needed at all.

Intake manifolds are another good example. The stock PI intake merely needs a throttle body and inlet swap to carry an engine well into the 500hp range. Those figures aren't even possible to my knowledge with the stock E7TE intake/throttle body.

 

[90lxcoupe]

Throttle bodies for instance. Where you need both a throttle body and spacer for a 5.0L, you need only the throttle body for the Modular.

The only parts that really stand out cost wise are cam swaps, since you've got to swap 2, or in the DOHC's case 4, to the OHV's 1. That being said, people have made over 500hp with the stock SOCH's and over 600hp with the DOHC's (with a power adder of course).

Intake manifolds are another good example. The stock PI intake merely needs a throttle body and inlet swap to carry an engine well into the 500hp range. Those figures aren't even possible to my knowledge with the stock E7TE intake/throttle body.

i was in a lightning monday that had stock cams, stock tb, built longblock, stock heads, and a 76mm turbo kit that made 640 rwhp and 660 tq, the thing was an animal, and it drove better than a stock truck. the stock mod parts can support alot of hp when setup right

 

[Mustang5L5]

Stock 2V heads can also breathe.....something E7's can't do all that well

 

[NIKwoaC]

In this day and age, you really only own a Fox for the nostalgia of it or because you for some reason won't or can't use forced induction. From a purely functional standpoint, once you put a power adder on a 99+ you're better off in every way over a Fox.

 

[Mustang5L5]

In this day and age, you really only own a Fox for the nostalgia of it

I agree. You really only get into these if you are an enthusiast and you love to tinker and mod. I for one LOVE driving a 5.0 around because of the attention and response you get from seeing a car you don't see every day anymore.

To be honest, there are probably modern 4-door cars out there that (stock for stock) can outaccelerate, outhandle and outbrake a stock 5.0 Mustang....and do it in total comfort

 

[rock4451]

after a power adder, of course. for the everyday guy, though, who just wants a faster than average car from bolt ons (i.e. gears(same for both), exhaust, pullies, mmmaybe intake) the 5.0 parts are more plentiful and cheaper. when you throw a blower or turbo in, it is a whole different ballgame in which, even so, a supercharger for a 4.6 is more expensive for one of a 5.0. i guess it all depends on what you're willing to spend.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Also keep in mind....even in N/A trim, you're still a little further ahead with a PI 4.6L to start. Yes, a head/cam/intake/full bolt on swap will get you into the 300-320hp range on a 5.0L, but you're essentially replacing the entire top end of the engine to do it.

On the other hand, you can make those same numbers with just cams and bolt ons with a PI 4.6L.

So....yes, the bolt on parts for the 5.0L may be cheaper and plentiful in a lot of cases, but you really need more of them to reach the same end result.

I pretty much see it this way.

-Stock, to about 320hp N/A, the Mod Motors now take the lead in bang for the buck performance
-320+ N/A the OHV takes the lead with their ability to vastly increase displacement
-320-600+ Forced Induction the OHC again seems the leader.
-Beyond that....its anyones ball game really.

Yes, i'll agree blowers are a little more expensive for Mod motors, but again the sustained power increase on blower alone is much, much higher for the Modular compared to the OHV

Example...an basic, non intercooled centrifugal set up on a bone stock 5.0L will net you somewhere in the 290-330hp range.

a basic, non intercooled centrifugal set up on a bone stock PI modular will net you somewhere in the 360-400hp range.

Its really all about volumetric efficency.

 

[rock4451]

i would agree. on a side note, i've been told that cams on an ohc motor aren't a good bang for the buck mod? is this so

 

[Gearbanger 101]

i would agree. on a side note, i've been told that cams on an ohc motor aren't a good bang for the buck mod? is this so

Not without all the bolt ons, or a power adder, no. At most, cams are going to net you about 20hp on a stock displacement PI engine. A little higher with CNC ported head and I would imagine there's room for higher numbers still with the release of the new Trick Flow heads.

The stock cams are actually pretty decent, which is why I suspect there isn't a whole lot of room for improvement on a stock displacement, stock headed engine.

With enough unnatural motivation (IE Forced induction) though, there are guys making 700+ hp still running the stock bump sticks. The 3v and 4V guys are up around 800hp.

 

[90lxcoupe]

With enough unnatural motivation (IE Forced induction) though, there are guys making 700+ hp still running the stock bump sticks. The 3v and 4V guys are up around 800hp.

Yea its really easy to make silly power with the stock cams, the valvesprings are what really need upgrading on the OHC motors, most guys that are making over 500 hp swap the stock ones even if they are still using the stock cams

 

[NIKwoaC]

I pretty much see it this way.

-Stock, to about 320hp N/A, the Mod Motors now take the lead in bang for the buck performance
-320+ N/A the OHV takes the lead with their ability to vastly increase displacement
-320-600+ Forced Induction the OHC again seems the leader.
-Beyond that....its anyones ball game really.

I was giving this some thought and I pose a new pondering for all of you: Its not uncommon to see stock block 5.0s slip into the 10s. Toss in a Windsor and 9s are in reach without buying an aftermarket block. Hell, a lot of Windsors are going deep 10s without anything gut a longer crank. Yea, the factory pushrod blocks will give up the ghost before the modular blocks will, but when you're chasing 600+ horsepower and don't have a 10 second car, you're in it just for the numbers and bragging rights. And in that case, then yea, you can talk about it all day long on the internet, and the 1200 hp twin turbo Termis will have everyone oohing and ahhing.

I ran into a guy at the parts store today and he was telling me about his stroker Windsor that he's building for nitrous. He was expecting this car to be in the 10s once he had it together. The guy was just an auto service tech, so you know hes not building a 50 thousand dollar car, but what he's building is gonna get the job DONE.

I think dollar for dollar, the pushrod cars still have the 1320 throne over the mod motor cars, until you get into the 10s, in which you're on the cusp of it being just a race car anyway, pushrods or no pushrods.

But even then, there definitely are fast mod motors out there that were built on the cheap, so what it comes down to is personal preference, really.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I was giving this some thought and I pose a new pondering for all of you: Its not uncommon to see stock block 5.0s slip into the 10s. Toss in a Windsor and 9s are in reach without buying an aftermarket block. Hell, a lot of Windsors are going deep 10s without anything gut a longer crank. Yea, the factory pushrod blocks will give up the ghost before the modular blocks will, but when you're chasing 600+ horsepower and don't have a 10 second car, you're in it just for the numbers and bragging rights. And in that case, then yea, you can talk about it all day long on the internet, and the 1200 hp twin turbo Termis will have everyone oohing and ahhing.

I ran into a guy at the parts store today and he was telling me about his stroker Windsor that he's building for nitrous. He was expecting this car to be in the 10s once he had it together. The guy was just an auto service tech, so you know hes not building a 50 thousand dollar car, but what he's building is gonna get the job DONE.

I think dollar for dollar, the pushrod cars still have the 1320 throne over the mod motor cars, until you get into the 10s, in which you're on the cusp of it being just a race car anyway, pushrods or no pushrods.

But even then, there definitely are fast mod motors out there that were built on the cheap, so what it comes down to is personal preference, really.

I don't think the deciding factor in ET's is the power plant that each car is sporting necessarily, but the weight and the kind of car they're moving around.

These 10-second Fox bodies you hear of are almost always purpose built cars, with a lot of weight reduction to go along with that power plant (A/C and Smog delete, back seats yanked, manual windows/doors, etc). Most are usually tipping the scales in and around 2,900-3,100lbs from what I see and show up to the track caged and with slicks and skinnies on standby. Although a lot of these drivers still choose to drive these cars on the street, in most cases, they're hardly considered street streetable.

Its pretty different in comparison the usual guy in his fully loaded SN95 that shows up at the track with 18" wheels a booming aftermarket stereo and a 2" drop all the way around. Yeah, he's totting around 400, 500 and 600, fully streetable horsepower, passing state emissions and still knocking down 25mpg on the way too and from the track, but still tipping the scales at 3,400+ and has hardly set his car up as a 1320-Warrior.

Case in point, I was at the track just last weekend and about 4 of the 6 foxes I saw there came built and ready for battle. They weren’t the prettiest things I’ve seen, but you can tell they were built for business. Most of the SN95 cars that were there were essentially still street cars piloted by weekend Warriors and nowhere near in the same class. Most guys there were running the same parts they would have on the street and about the only major changes were a set of drag radials?

I think with the Fox cars still being so common and inexpensive to buy and junk yards being stocked full of replacement parts, more of their owners are set on turning them into legitimate track cars, without having to worry about whether or not a part is going to be in stock for them should they break something, since most are trailered to the track anyway.

As sad as it is to see, even 17-years after they first started production, most people in my experience are still afraid to tackle the Modular engine. I see guys at the track that could tune a carburetor in their sleep, but the thought of cracking a valve cover on a 4.6L makes them break out in a cold sweat. You’d think at this point the persona of the engine would have worn off, or sunk in…but it still seems that many still don’t understand it…and quite frankly, a lot I’ve seen refuse to even try?

For the record, the SN95's that I’ve seen that do show up with owners that know what they’re doing with them and ready to fight, are running every bit as quick as their Fox bodied brethren.

 

[FastDriver]

Also keep in mind....even in N/A trim, you're still a little further ahead with a PI 4.6L to start. Yes, a head/cam/intake/full bolt on swap will get you into the 300-320hp range on a 5.0L, but you're essentially replacing the entire top end of the engine to do it.

Based on the OPs initial question concerning the '89 v. a '98, the PI doesn't come into question. That 300-320 is at the wheels, to clarify.

Also, if I were the OP based on his initial question, I'd tell him to go with the '98. For a straight-line performance mustang, it's always going to be a fox. I will consider an '03 Cobra a better start point when the price comes down to the $10-15k range. Even then, the fox will always be a lighter car.

Plus, I love working with the 5.0 platform. While I have more invested than the vast majority would put into their cars, I'm surprised and happy with the results: 762 rwhp at 14psi on 93 octane pump gas and no injections (meth, water, nitrous, etc...). Given my car idles and drives nearly as smoothly as a stocker, I haven't seen those results duplicated by a mod motor to date.

On the other hand, you can make those same numbers with just cams and bolt ons with a PI 4.6L.

Really? 70+ rwhp from bolt-ons? If so, that's a hell of a lot better than I remember seeing.

I pretty much see it this way.

-Stock, to about 320hp N/A, the Mod Motors now take the lead in bang for the buck performance
-320+ N/A the OHV takes the lead with their ability to vastly increase displacement
-320-600+ Forced Induction the OHC again seems the leader.
-Beyond that....its anyones ball game really.

Though you and I have gone round and round on this issue, this seems pretty accurate to me, if you're comparing the PI motors to the 5.0s. If you went with the 4v, then of course you're starting off so far ahead that I'm not so sure the 5.0 will catch up.

Yes, i'll agree blowers are a little more expensive for Mod motors, but again the sustained power increase on blower alone is much, much higher for the Modular compared to the OHV.

Example...an basic, non intercooled centrifugal set up on a bone stock 5.0L will net you somewhere in the 290-330hp range.

a basic, non intercooled centrifugal set up on a bone stock PI modular will net you somewhere in the 360-400hp range.

Just remember to keep in mind that blowers and turbos basically magnify the n/a power of a given motor. So, essentially if you start of with a motor that has more n/a power and you add an identical blower or turbo at identical pressure, you'll end up with an even bigger hp gap than you started with. I wasn't aware of the price difference in blowers for mods vs. 5.0s, but if this is so, then one should be able to close the gap pretty quickly.

Its really all about volumetric efficency.

Don't forget displacement. Larger motors operating at identical thermal and volumetric efficiencies will always make more power than smaller motors. The relevant point here is that modified modular motors to this point have always had a displacement disadvantage when compared to the Windsor 302s and 351s.

Chris

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I can't really say I disagree with any of your post.

I will add though, that all of the horsepower figures I quoted were at the flywheel, since figures would vary depending on drivetrain, but the 70+ rwhp with ALL bolt ons and Cams is certainly possible. There are a couple over in the 4.6 section running an honest to goodness 300RWHP with them and into the 315-20rwhp range with ported stock head castings. The Trick Flow heads should be good for even more than that.

 

[FastDriver]

Ok, I gotcha, and I believe you about the PI bolt-on cars. FWIW, a mild (read: still very streetable) H/C/I swap on a 5.0 is good for 300+ at the wheels if done right, even without bumping compression. So, when you said HCI 5.0s were in the 300-320hp range, I assumed you meant at the wheels. With pretty much any aftermarket heads, an OTS Cam, and a basic intake 320hp (270ish rwhp through a 5-speed) is a cinch. Being selective and paying attention to the combination of parts, 300+ at the wheels isn't a problem for these cars.

Chris