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After a near accident, What makes Fox brakes so bad?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fox racer
  • Start date Start date Jun 7, 2006
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fox racer

Member
Jun 22, 2004
577
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16
Staten Island, NYC
Jun 7, 2006
#1
  • Jun 7, 2006
  • #1
I was just driving and some guy stoppped, slammed on his brakes I should say, on the straight exit of a soft turn. I was on the turn, hit my brakes and started head on for a pole. I simply let off the brakes, the car started turning again, and i eased on the brakes to avoid hitting this idiot. The point of telling this climactic event was to bring up a question about Fox brakes. Everyone says how much they blow, but they locked my front tires up by an immediate overreaction. Is that what makes these brakes suck? they lock up too easily? Do 13" rotors and dual piston calipers not lock up like that? I guess my question is, what exactly makes Fox brakes suck so much?
 
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kevin2m4

New Member
Mar 16, 2004
50
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0
Barrie Ontario Canada
Jun 7, 2006
#2
  • Jun 7, 2006
  • #2
i dont have a mustang but i have a disc drum setup on my other cars that suck.

id say the locking up is almost agood thing, hard pedal means that theres no air in the lines and the pad is grabbing good.

however the brake discs are small and the caliper is small and single piston. the rear drums are small as well.

having a larger disc, dual piston calipers and a ceramic pad would probably slow the car faster without locking. ceramic/kevlar metallic is what i run on my car just for the fact that i dont get brake dust. i find that when you apply the brakes initially they grab better as they heat up.

the towncars i have, an option on the towing pack was larger drums. on my camaro an option is aluminum drums.

i wish they were all disc. drums are a pain.

i think you are lucky to be able to put a newer brake system on your car so easily without machine or custom work, and even from the same model car.
 

duner

Mr. Warmth
Jul 21, 2003
1,756
3
0
Oregon
Jun 7, 2006
#3
  • Jun 7, 2006
  • #3
Tires are very important in this equation. Traction is the key to stopping the car.

I have Cobra brakes and sticky tires. I just did an open track day and I repeatedly hammered the brakes entering a 90-degree corner and never locked the brakes. That was all traction.

The stock brakes are weak. But, since you locked them up you lost traction. What is the condition of your front tires?
 
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SamSnyder

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 7, 2006
#4
  • Jun 7, 2006
  • #4
Whew, where to begin? As a general matter they're not horrible, but adding big tires and lots of horsepower pushes them past their limits. The fact that yours don't stop straight indicates something's not right. Maybe you have air in one caliper that's causing that side to work less than the other side. You could also have grease or oil contamination on the pads on one side, causing uneven braking. And of course, you could have a sticking caliper that causes one side to work poorly. When set up and maintained right, they'll stop pretty good.

One huge issue that's frequently overlooked is the front/rear balance. These cars use ancient technology drum brakes, and in 25 years of hot rodding I have never, ever, ever (ever) seen the "automatic" adjusting stars keep the drums adjusted right after any length of time. The most noticeable condition is nosediving, which can be eliminated with correct drum adjustment. Maladjusted drums are also a huge suspect in pulling to one side. A lot of people ignore the drums because they can't see inside, and are frankly mystified by how they work. And even when guys do reline the drums, I'm sure that many skimp and don't install a new small parts hardware kit that includes new springs. Old and weak drum brake springs causes poor release when you take your foot off the pedal. And you've gotta adjust them right, since they don't just adjust themselves like discs will when you replace the pads. Just getting the drums at the correct adjustment will make a huge difference. I find that I have to adjust the drums manually at least every 5000 miles.

Just for one mystery war story: I stupidly mis-installed rear drum brake shoes, and had a weird pulling and side-to side imbalance that ate the front pads and disc up on one side in only a few thousand miles, when the other side was fine. I thought it was a sticking caliper, but ultimately figured out that I had gotten the rear drum shoes mixed up -- they come in pairs, and each side gets a small one and a bigger one, called the "leading" and "trailing" shoes. I stupidly put both leading shoes on one side, and both trailing shoes on the other side. It caused the weirdness described above, and cost me a front rotor.

Take a good look at the rubber brake lines too, for puffy or spongey appearance. These can get dry rotted or just worn out on a 15 year-old car. Stainless braided brake lines can be had for $125, and will assure a firm pedal. Mine work pretty good.

If I was you, I'd go through the whole system, including cutting the rotors, turning the drums, replacing the pads and shoes (along with the aforementioned small parts kit, which is only about $7), and flushing a quart of fluid through the system. You could probably do all of that for about $80-100 and an afternoon's time.
 
I

iwashmycar

20+ Year Stangneter
Apr 7, 2004
1,236
1
39
Columbus, Ohio
Jun 7, 2006
#5
  • Jun 7, 2006
  • #5
they definately blow...i am planning on trying to at least upgrade to the 73 mm (i think) calipers that are on the towncars (i think) which will help, along with some better pads and stainless lines...should be a much enjoyable ride....my heart just sinks down to the seat when i have to brake really hard and the brand new SUV with the brake-happy soccer mom is tailin too close to the whatever in front of her....its nerve-racking. I dont even drive close to others but i guess it is never enough by the time the stockers get braking good

-adam
 

fox racer

Member
Jun 22, 2004
577
0
16
Staten Island, NYC
Jun 8, 2006
#6
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #6
The rotors have been turned and pads are new within the last 1500 miles, the tires hae about 3000-4000 miles on them (Khumo Ecsta 711s). I dont kno why, but i can lock them up like theres no tomorow, wet or dry.

BTW: the only reason they didnt break straight was because i was mid turn (wheel turned to the left) and the brakes were locked up.
 

Foxfan88

My Grandpa has great wood.
Sep 13, 2004
2,487
4
0
Miami, Ok
Jun 8, 2006
#7
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #7
you want your tires on the verge of locking up... this is when the best braking possible is achieved. this is what ABS is for, which we dont have

to try and prevent lock up, ease into the pedal, not just a sudden stomp to the floor.

while on topic do the sn cars have ABS? i dont know for sure.

i think the fox brakes suck bc the front discs are pretty small and we have rear drums which dont stop as well as a disc setup.

people do the sn95 conversion all the time, to have 4 wheel disc, discs are MUCH MUCH easier to work on. drums are A PAIN to work on, gotta have special tools....
 

Nopantz

New Member
May 26, 2003
234
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NJ/US Merchant Marine Academy
Jun 8, 2006
#8
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #8
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/index.html?http&&&www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=49&zenid=fea02d2b1a3e97645f53cbca3f7b8a92

MM Brake Upgrade Kit
 
M

mkk50

Active Member
Apr 5, 2005
109
29
39
Jun 8, 2006
#9
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #9
the reason i think most people say the fox brakes suck is not the first or second stop, its the repetitive stops on the track, Fox brakes fade away quickly. Ive honestly never had a problem stopping in time, and i live in jersey, where people love to pull out in front of you in a 55 and go 20
 

s&k stangs

New Member
May 24, 2006
0
0
0
MOnroe, Nc
Jun 8, 2006
#10
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #10
sn95's

Foxfan88 said:
while on topic do the sn cars have ABS? i dont know for sure.
Click to expand...

Starting in 94 mustangs came equiped with four disc antilock brakes
 
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brothergoat5

New Member
Sep 11, 2005
26
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0
Jun 8, 2006
#11
  • Jun 8, 2006
  • #11
duner said:
Tires are very important in this equation. Traction is the key to stopping the car.

I have Cobra brakes and sticky tires. I just did an open track day and I repeatedly hammered the brakes entering a 90-degree corner and never locked the brakes. That was all traction.

The stock brakes are weak. But, since you locked them up you lost traction. What is the condition of your front tires?
Click to expand...


X2 on the tires. What I've encountered is its easier to lock up tires that are starting to dry up. I just put new shoes on mine and have yet to lock up the tires. The reason everyone hates fox brakes is they have a tendancy to fade quick under hard usage.
 
S

SamSnyder

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
196
0
0
Jun 9, 2006
#12
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #12
I'm sticking by my original response -- having dicked endlessly with brakes for over 20 years, the most critical difference I have noticed in setting up disc/drum cars is in the front-to-rear bias, as controlled by the rear drum adjustment. Everybody in the audience who has actually spent any time in the last year tweaking the rear drums by both tightening and then loosening them to dial in a setting that pleases you, raise your hand!.............. Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?................
 
K

kevin2m4

New Member
Mar 16, 2004
50
0
0
Barrie Ontario Canada
Jun 9, 2006
#13
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #13
i uploaded some treats
*note these are not mustang drums but they probably are the same



 
K

kevin2m4

New Member
Mar 16, 2004
50
0
0
Barrie Ontario Canada
Jun 9, 2006
#14
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #14
subscrbng
 

Shakerhood

20+ Year Stangneter
Oct 28, 2004
3,356
208
114
Ohio
Jun 9, 2006
#15
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #15
Yes the stock brakes suck for sure and really should have never left the Factory with them. Disc/Drum set up is 60s Technology, the Front Rotors are too small and the calipers are single piston plus the weight of a V8 engine sitting over them does not help. The rear drums are of little use and are lucky to even be able to hold the car on an incline with the handbrake. The SN95 Disc conversion was the best money I have spent on my car, night and day difference!
 

795.0pacecar

lover of pudgy polygamists
Jul 11, 2003
480
0
17
Senoia, GA
Jun 9, 2006
#16
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #16
The rear drums although an old technology are not bad. I dont understand why everyones knocking drum brakes, they are more powerful than disks, they have more surface area (more pad to drum contact). The problem is they fade quickly and if one side is adjusted wrong the car will pull. On a street car drums are perfectly fine, think of this semi trucks use drum brakes.
 

Ny Mustang Guy

Founding Member
Dec 10, 2001
322
0
0
Queens Nyc
Jun 9, 2006
#17
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #17
Just curious.. Do you still have the 4 Cyl Brakes?
 

Aliate X

Member
May 9, 2005
602
1
18
Rockland NY
Jun 9, 2006
#18
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #18
What do you guys think of the 5 lug/4 wheel disk upgrade kit from FRPP?
 

Shakerhood

20+ Year Stangneter
Oct 28, 2004
3,356
208
114
Ohio
Jun 9, 2006
#19
  • Jun 9, 2006
  • #19
Aliate X said:
What do you guys think of the 5 lug/4 wheel disk upgrade kit from FRPP?
Click to expand...

If talking about the M-2300-K Kit, Its Awesome!!!
 
S

SamSnyder

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
196
0
0
Jun 10, 2006
#20
  • Jun 10, 2006
  • #20
I do agree that drums are not evil incarnate. In fact, the 5.0 Mustang bible, the 2 volume Mustang Performance book set by William Mathis, says that the only real reason for having rear discs is not that they stop better, but that they release quicker, which is only important in road racing. Again, I urge anybody that's unhappy with their Fox-body disc/drum performance to teach themself how to really and truly adjust rear drums properly before condemning the whole brake system, or spending mega-bucks trying to "improve" it.
 
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