Alignment Issues, Need Suggestions

[Silvergto2]

I recently had Ford C springs and Bilstein Shocks/Struts installed on my GT. Immediately after, I noticed it was out of alignment, so I waited 6 days for anymore settling to occur and then I took it to Les Schwab to get it aligned. Once I took it in, the alignment tech told me that he couldn't align my car properly because it looked like the chassis was moved, aka in a wreck. I explained to him that my car was straight off of the showroom floor and basically is a weekend warrior that has never been in a wreck and in fact has never had any alignment issues. Long story short, he told me to bring it back and he and another tech would slide my chassis over (i guess) so that he could align the caster and camber settings. After I picked it up from the second appointment, the tech told me they didn't do anything to my chassis but could only make adjustments to a certain point. My car now pulls to the left so I have to compensate by driving with the steering wheel to the right a bit. Here are my Caster/Camber/Toe settings that I got from Les Schwab after they did the alignment. I need suggestions on what to do now to fix this. What should everything be set to for best alignment.

Left Front Camber: -0.1
Right Front Camber: -0.7
Left Front Caster: 3.4
Right Front Caster: 3.6
Left Front Toe: 0.17
Right Front Toe: 0.15

Total Toe: 0.32
Steer Ahead: 0.01

 

[EPIK]

They should have no problem aligning your car, because c springs dont even lower the car enough to even have to use aftermarket caster/camber plates. I suggest going somewhere else. I have my car lowered about 2 to 2 1/4 inches in the front & my car was easily aligned with the Maximum Motorsports cc plates I have. And if u know your car was never wrecked, your chassis should be fine other than the production tolerances ford allows, & it wouldnt be enough to make your car unalignable, if thats a word. Just go somewhere else & see what they say. Good luck

 

[Silvergto2]

anyone else?

 

[Serper3]

well, i am not sure what issue u are having but first off, this is simliar to the issue i had... it looks like the allignment guys saw some problem, or maybe thought they did, and then stopped with the allignment. regardless as if their was an issue or not, they should have tried to make it as equal as possible on the caster, camber and toe settings passanger vs. driver side..
for example i had an issue with my camber on the passanger side... its supposed to be -1 degree negative but instead it was reading .7 degrees positive. they couldnt correct any more. they couldnt add any more negative because it was maxed out. the first time i was at the shop, they didnt even bother fixing the toe and caster and getting the allignment as close as possible, and like u are saying, my car also pulled..
i whent back and they fixed the caster and toe and it pulled a little, but it was alot better.. the reason it pulled was because it was such a large difference on my car from -1 degree to .7 degrees....
the question here though is what is actually wrong with the allignment? did they actually tell u, we cant get the car alligned because the ... is out of range..
does this make any sense? if the tell u for example, the camber cant be adjusted, be like wtf did u not correct my toe and caster correctly??
with my car, the issue i was having and i also have bilsteins, but the coilover ones, was that i couldnt get the camber correct on the passanger side because the bilsteins have a larger diameter hole for the top strut to spindle bolt wich allows for aditional camber adjustments. if u loosen the top strut to spindle bolt the spindle needs to be pushed towards the car, to add as much negative camber as possible and then tightened... the allignment guys might not know about this (people who did my allginment didnt know about it) this fixed my problem... and it might be what is happening to u as well, they just cant get the camber fixed so they didnt bother with the toe and caster... toe will affect pull alot, and when camber is alot different on either side, it will affect it too... caster, shouldnt affect pull much, unless also very different passanger vs driver side..
hope this helps, looks like u might have to make another trip to the allignment shop... i totally have been their and done that in the last 5+ months!
:SNSign:

also, forgot to say, with mm cc plates, its also possible to adjust caster independantly from camber, and vice versa which might complicate things....

 

[Disturbed One]

How hard is it pulling left?? I think there could be a slight chance of it due the split in camber. Granted both are tilted inwards but the .6 of a degree can make some difference on some vehicles. After I put my suspension on mine and had it aligned, they ended up putting as much equal positive caster, made the camber within specs equal and then set the toe as close as possible to each other. Drives wonderfully.

I've had it aligned to where the camber specs from side to side was different like yours, but the split they look at on the screen said it was still within the specs... and had it pull on me. I've also seen customer vehicles to where the split says it's ok, but it pulled on them and it needed to be tweaked a bit to stop the pull.

 

[03ghoststang]

I recently had Ford C springs and Bilstein Shocks/Struts installed on my GT. Immediately after, I noticed it was out of alignment, so I waited 6 days for anymore settling to occur and then I took it to Les Schwab to get it aligned. Once I took it in, the alignment tech told me that he couldn't align my car properly because it looked like the chassis was moved, aka in a wreck. I explained to him that my car was straight off of the showroom floor and basically is a weekend warrior that has never been in a wreck and in fact has never had any alignment issues. Long story short, he told me to bring it back and he and another tech would slide my chassis over (i guess) so that he could align the caster and camber settings. After I picked it up from the second appointment, the tech told me they didn't do anything to my chassis but could only make adjustments to a certain point. My car now pulls to the left so I have to compensate by driving with the steering wheel to the right a bit. Here are my Caster/Camber/Toe settings that I got from Les Schwab after they did the alignment. I need suggestions on what to do now to fix this. What should everything be set to for best alignment.

Left Front Camber: -0.1
Right Front Camber: -0.7
Left Front Caster: 3.4
Right Front Caster: 3.6
Left Front Toe: 0.17
Right Front Toe: 0.15

Total Toe: 0.32
Steer Ahead: 0.01

do you have after market C/C plates.......... in any case if it dosent they should have been able to pull the camber and adjust the caster to be a bit more positive on the right............and as far as toe that should have been set at 0* total toe with 0.00 steer ahead, the reading should be at around 10* on each side for toe but im not entirely sure on the spec range

 

[03ghoststang]

How hard is it pulling left?? I think there could be a slight chance of it due the split in camber. Granted both are tilted inwards but the .6 of a degree can make some difference on some vehicles. After I put my suspension on mine and had it aligned, they ended up putting as much equal positive caster, made the camber within specs equal and then set the toe as close as possible to each other. Drives wonderfully.

I've had it aligned to where the camber specs from side to side was different like yours, but the split they look at on the screen said it was still within the specs... and had it pull on me. I've also seen customer vehicles to where the split says it's ok, but it pulled on them and it needed to be tweaked a bit to stop the pull.

true but when its in spec and it pulls then it may be due to a radial pull on the front tires have had that happen to me a few times sent the tire to the rear and its gone and the car drives straight

 

[RoadconeTuning]

your camber is hosed... get them make them equal but make sure you have Maximum Motorsports C/C plates first.... and take it to a shop that doesnt pay their techs 6.25 an hour... they really could care less if its how you want it.

 

[Silvergto2]

I appreciate all of the responses. First off, I do not have caster camber plates since I was told multiple times that they weren't necessary with c springs. Secondly, it pulls to the left pretty hard. If I let go of the wheel, it tracks left immediately, I also have to correct for the pull to the left by driving with the steering wheel turned slightly to the right to go in a straight line. Next, I don't think its a simple tire issue. I have never had a tracking issue on my car and in fact had the tires rotated about 2 months before the suspension install. Basically, the alignment techs are telling me that they can't bring my right front camber any more positive. I argued on the phone with them for over an hour yesterday and I am taking it back to them on Saturday but this time I will be watching the entire process myself. They told me that all of my settings are within spec but I dont care. The car pulls now and it didn't before I lowered it. I've kinda come to the conclusion that I need to try to have them set my camber to -0.5* on both sides, as much positive caster as possible 4.0* maybe, and get the toe as close to zero as possible. And now after all of this I am getting this really loud banging / clunk noise from either the drivers side or passenger side strut tower when I go over certain bumps in the road. WTF????? I am really annoyed that I spent $700+ dollars and my car rides worse than it did on 5 year old stock suspension.

 

[steve_stang2003]

I appreciate all of the responses. First off, I do not have caster camber plates since I was told multiple times that they weren't necessary with c springs. Secondly, it pulls to the left pretty hard. If I let go of the wheel, it tracks left immediately, I also have to correct for the pull to the left by driving with the steering wheel turned slightly to the right to go in a straight line. Next, I don't think its a simple tire issue. I have never had a tracking issue on my car and in fact had the tires rotated about 2 months before the suspension install. Basically, the alignment techs are telling me that they can't bring my right front camber any more positive. I argued on the phone with them for over an hour yesterday and I am taking it back to them on Saturday but this time I will be watching the entire process myself. They told me that all of my settings are within spec but I dont care. The car pulls now and it didn't before I lowered it. I've kinda come to the conclusion that I need to try to have them set my camber to -0.5* on both sides, as much positive caster as possible 4.0* maybe, and get the toe as close to zero as possible. And now after all of this I am getting this really loud banging / clunk noise from either the drivers side or passenger side strut tower when I go over certain bumps in the road. WTF????? I am really annoyed that I spent $700+ dollars and my car rides worse than it did on 5 year old stock suspension.

Here is the deal.....I have had a LOT of experience with alignments, not that I've done them, but I have experienced the ineptness of the $6.25/hr drones attempting to do them.

1. Most cars are FWD and the angles are built in with the exception of toe and MAYBE, camber.
Caster is a nasty word these days.

2. Most alignment shops haven't a clue how to PROPERLY align a car.
They have a $100,000 Hunter machine that even a trained seal can operate, yet they don't know how to use it and even if they do, chances are the machine has not been regularly calibrated and it will be off anyhow.

3. You are bringing them a car that "doesn't fit the mold" or the database that lives inside the machine. IOW your ride height is different than stock and your front end geometry is as well due to your height being off.

THIS is what is throwing the drones off the tracks. They don't know how to over ride the machine and do a custom job.
You have to understand, they are used to doing FWD cars and tweaking the toe a little bit until the *****'s on the display line up. Those are astericks BTW not bad words

This is why they are telling you that your car has been hit.

4. Find a speed shop that knows Mustangs, Camaros, BMW's etc IOW any high end RWD car and knows how to align them.

If you have no such animal in your neck of the woods, find a GOOD collision shop and ask them who THEY use to align the cars they put back together after accidents.

One last thing, and you are not going to like this, BUT, the drones may actually be correct.

Here is the reason why.

When the cars are built, there are certain tolerances in the manufacturing process that are normal. The adjustments that are allowed on the Mustangs suspension are there to make up for these tolerences.

So let's suppose, when your car was built you were near the + edge on camber, meaning the travel on the bolts was right at the top of the + side.

You would still be in spec, the car would track perfectly and you would be happy.

Now you go an lower the car and you need some more adjustment on that + sides camber. Well guess what? There is no more adjustment.

Yet, your buddy's car has all his stock adjustments in the middle, meaning he has adjustment play on the + and the - side.

And your other buddy may be more toward the - side so if he has to go more - camber with springs, he may not be able to.

Yet, all your cars are in perfect factory alignment WITH FACTORY PARTS.

Yet, adding certain aftermarket parts may be a nightmare for one of you and no problem for another.

See what I am saying?

All that being said, the short answer is find a shop that knows what they are doing and get another opinion.

As for the noises, that does not sound good....
Get it looked at.

 

[Serper3]

I appreciate all of the responses. First off, I do not have caster camber plates since I was told multiple times that they weren't necessary with c springs. Secondly, it pulls to the left pretty hard. If I let go of the wheel, it tracks left immediately, I also have to correct for the pull to the left by driving with the steering wheel turned slightly to the right to go in a straight line. Next, I don't think its a simple tire issue. I have never had a tracking issue on my car and in fact had the tires rotated about 2 months before the suspension install. Basically, the alignment techs are telling me that they can't bring my right front camber any more positive. I argued on the phone with them for over an hour yesterday and I am taking it back to them on Saturday but this time I will be watching the entire process myself. They told me that all of my settings are within spec but I dont care. The car pulls now and it didn't before I lowered it. I've kinda come to the conclusion that I need to try to have them set my camber to -0.5* on both sides, as much positive caster as possible 4.0* maybe, and get the toe as close to zero as possible. And now after all of this I am getting this really loud banging / clunk noise from either the drivers side or passenger side strut tower when I go over certain bumps in the road. WTF????? I am really annoyed that I spent $700+ dollars and my car rides worse than it did on 5 year old stock suspension.

wait, lol, they are saying they cant make it more positive? tell them that thats ok, because u need more negative. u want to be at exactly -1.0 degrees camber on both sides. -1 camber is good for handling but wont cause tire wearing issues. some people on here go with -1.5 degrees camber on both sides... thats pushing it but should still be ok. i am at -1. it does sound like these guys have no idea what they are talking about. i dont remember what i had my caster and toe set at, but when they said, "oh its in spec" so just leave it, lol... thats the biggest bunch of bs, thats what is causing the pulling in the car...
i had the same problem in my car with varying levels of camber and it pulled as well.
go back to them and tell them u want them to make the camber on both sides equal to -1, and all the other standards to spec, but equal passanger side vs. driver side... this should fix ur problem... the people at ur shop really do seem like idiots..
good luck though and keep us updated as to what they say..
oh btw, tire pressure could also be contributing somewhat to the pulling... tire pressure should be even on both sides..

 

[steve_stang2003]

wait, lol, they are saying they cant make it more positive? tell them that thats ok, because u need more negative. u want to be at exactly -1.0 degrees camber on both sides. -1 camber is good for handling but wont cause tire wearing issues. some people on here go with -1.5 degrees camber on both sides... thats pushing it but should still be ok. i am at -1. it does sound like these guys have no idea what they are talking about. i dont remember what i had my caster and toe set at, but when they said, "oh its in spec" so just leave it, lol... thats the biggest bunch of bs, thats what is causing the pulling in the car...
i had the same problem in my car with varying levels of camber and it pulled as well.
go back to them and tell them u want them to make the camber on both sides equal to -1, and all the other standards to spec, but equal passanger side vs. driver side... this should fix ur problem... the people at ur shop really do seem like idiots..
good luck though and keep us updated as to what they say..
oh btw, tire pressure could also be contributing somewhat to the pulling... tire pressure should be even on both sides..

+1
When these guys have to think outside the box they fall apart.

 

[Silvergto2]

Well, I am taking it back to them Saturday morning and since I have bilsteins, I am going to take the advice of Serper3 and have them undo the bolt and push the strut closer to the engine and then tighten it down and try to align it. Hopefully this fixes it. I am not leaving that place until it works right. I'll get Les Schwab himself down there to fix it if I have to.

 

[MaxedGT]

Steve is right. If I remember correct the camber spec is -.8 +/- .5 deg. I aligned mine to -1.3 and about 5.0 caster and 0 toe. Notice I said 'I aligned mine". I bet these guys never checked the specs and are just going to settings that are common on most cars. Very few have a neg camber spec. Either that or the spec information they are using is wrong!

 

[Silvergto2]

Well I took it back to the "Drones" and its a little better than before but it still pulls a bit left and the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight. My new settings are:

Left Front Camber: -0.6*
Right Front Camber: -0.9*
Left Front Caster: 3.5*
Right Front Caster: 3.3*
Left Front Toe: 0.13*
Right Front Toe: 0.13*

I read everyones responses and told the techs what everyone said. They looked at my like I was an idiot. So, I decided to shut up, let them do their thing, and leave before they made it worse. The one tech even drove the car and told me that it was driving "perfectly straight and the steering wheel is perfectly straight" . I just about blew up on him. I made him go again with me driving and this time all the sudden he sees what I have been saying about it tracking left. They told me my Caster is maxed out too and they can't adjust that any . So after getting some more opinions online, I have decided to try a 3rd shop. Will my settings above mess up anything or mess up my tire wear significantly? Thanks to everyone on here. The information is always a life saver.

 

[03ghoststang]

as far as tire wear no, with my C/C plates i have my car at -1.0 for camber and it reduced the outer edge wear and caster well they are out of spec like near 5.0* but the cross caster is in spec................


Did they do that bolt on the strut thing or did they pull the camber out of the factory plates?.........So is it tracking to the left slightly?? and what direction is the sterring wheel tilted too left or right?

 

[MaxedGT]

More caster would be nice but caster is not a tire wearing angle.It's main purpose is to provide straight ahead stability and returnablity when completing a turn. I'd suggest setting the camber to -.9 on the left to match the right. The difference in the caster will provide a slight left pull which may be wanted to compensate for road crown. then the toe should be reset close to zero while centering the steering wheel.
You might want to cross the front tires though and see if it pulls in the opposite direction. The setting you showed would cause a slight pull left. Tire wear would be ok. I haven't done alignments in years, but when I did them on regular bases, I found most cars pulled because of tire problems, or just tire pressures.

 

[Silvergto2]

as far as tire wear no, with my C/C plates i have my car at -1.0 for camber and it reduced the outer edge wear and caster well they are out of spec like near 5.0* but the cross caster is in spec................


Did they do that bolt on the strut thing or did they pull the camber out of the factory plates?.........So is it tracking to the left slightly?? and what direction is the sterring wheel tilted too left or right?

They pulled the camber out of the factory plates. It is tracking a bit to the left and the steering wheel is tiltled to the right a bit. I do remember him saying that he set the camber off because of road crowning. I might have the tires rotated again just to see. Its sounds like now that I should be ok with the settings the way they are. If it bugs me too bad about the steering wheel, I'll have another shop look at it and see if they can make the wheel a little more straight.

 

[03ghoststang]

do the tire rotation cause it seems like you have a tire pull.........cause i've had it happen with brand new tires after i set an alignment

 

[DerekStangGT]

Well I took it back to the "Drones" and its a little better than before but it still pulls a bit left and the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight. My new settings are:

Left Front Camber: -0.6*
Right Front Camber: -0.9*
Left Front Caster: 3.5*
Right Front Caster: 3.3*
Left Front Toe: 0.13*
Right Front Toe: 0.13*

I read everyones responses and told the techs what everyone said. They looked at my like I was an idiot. So, I decided to shut up, let them do their thing, and leave before they made it worse. The one tech even drove the car and told me that it was driving "perfectly straight and the steering wheel is perfectly straight" . I just about blew up on him. I made him go again with me driving and this time all the sudden he sees what I have been saying about it tracking left. They told me my Caster is maxed out too and they can't adjust that any . So after getting some more opinions online, I have decided to try a 3rd shop. Will my settings above mess up anything or mess up my tire wear significantly? Thanks to everyone on here. The information is always a life saver.

wow man, lots of issues going on here. i have some input.

first of all, you went to the wrong shop. ive never heard of Les Swab or whatever, but it sounds like just another "National Tire and Battery" or generic shop. the reason they looked at you like you were crazy is b/c they dont know anything about a performance alignment. all they know is "i have to make the arrow on the computer screen turn green instead of red". an alignment is a very intricate (sp?) repair that requires the tech to actually know what hes doing, especially in the case of having a modded car. if not, he can actually make the car drive worse (which it seems he did). i dont think you said you had C/C plates, but hes feeding you a load of BS saying that the Caster is 'maxed out' b/c our car's caster is not adjustable from the factory. not many cars are anymore. thats why we buy Caster/Camber Plates, so we can further adjust Camber, and allow Caster adjustment.

Next, i wouldnt go back there anymore. i would demand my money back and go to another shop. every time you bring the car back, they have to align it for free again, and they hate that. theyre not gonna do a good job, theyre just gonna do good enough for you not to come back, or hope you get fed up and never go back.

As for one of your questions, its really not too hard to tell if your tires are wearing badly. if you drive down the road with the wheel cocked to one side, or the car pulls, chances are youre wearing badly. the harder the car pulls, the more theyre wearing.