Are my bearings ok (post mortem of oil pump shaft failure)

[C0V3R]

History of pump shaft failure

I have pulled the main caps (#2 and #4) and had a look at the bearings. The oil in that area was pretty dark considering its age and smelled a little burnt. There was still some oil on both bearing surfaces.

I am looking for the advice of our sage VMF gurus as to whether I should replace the bearings or not. Keep in mind these bearings have done about 6-700mi since new.

Bearing photos

 

[headgrinder]

bearings

Those bearings should be replaced but of more concern to me would be the rod bearings as they get oil after mains. You need to remove the caps and inspect them. By he looks of mains you may be able to lightly polish journals and replace bearings of course that depends on if there is any scoring of journals. The cost of a new set of bearings now while it is open is far less than the cost of a failure down the road. Good Luck.

 

[tylerrocks]

The cost of a new set of bearings now while it is open is far less than the cost of a failure down the road. Good Luck.

My thoughts exactly, but I'm no expert.

 

[66Runt]

From the looks of those bearings, I'd want the crank polished

If you can see lines on any of the journals, whether or not you can feel them with your finger tip, I'd send the crank out to be polished. I'd also flush the block. Nothing worse than pulling down an engine at 50K miles that you shouldn't have had to touch for 200K miles.

Sorry for your loss!

 

[C0V3R]

I think these show the colour a bit better as it is not throwing back the flash light as much. The top photos make the silver sections look black. The light grey sections are original matte silver surface (what youd see if you took a set out of the packet new).


Daylight photos

 

[C0V3R]

Heres what happened to the oil pump shaft.

You can see the bit of black garbage stuck in the oil pump rotor in towards the end.

 

[Eyeless_Seven]

Heres what happened to the oil pump shaft.

You can see the bit of black garbage stuck in the oil pump rotor in towards the end.

I would replace them and the mains also.
What the heck was the stuff caught up in the pump and how did it make it thru the filter?

 

[dbfarr]

ARP

Funny, I am in the middle of a timing chain, oil pan, cover, water pump, etc... etc replacement. A friend of mine suggested I take a look at the oil pump drive shaft, it was slightly twisted. So I dug up an arp replacement in order to avoid exactly what happened to you.

302 windsor/boss

ARP 154-7904

Maybe you already thought of this. I thought I'd mention it since its so fresh in my mind (installed it yesterday).

Looks like this

http://performanceparts.com/part.php?partID=173814

Then again, if you get a foriegn object in the pump.... not sure what would help at that point.

 

[C0V3R]

I would replace them and the mains also.
What the heck was the stuff caught up in the pump and how did it make it thru the filter?

Dont know what it is or how it got there. Its too big to have gotten through the oil pump screen, and doesnt look like any gasket I put on the car. There were 3 bits of it in the pump.

 

[C0V3R]

I've had some other people say that they thought part of the wear was because the crank looks like it has been machined slightly conical due to machining setup error (from the Ford Factory) - hence the wear pattern from side to side on both bearings.

What do you guys think?

 

[Eyeless_Seven]

I've had some other people say that they thought part of the wear was because the crank looks like it has been machined slightly conical due to machining setup error (from the Ford Factory) - hence the wear pattern from side to side on both bearings.

What do you guys think?

Anything is possible, but that's more then likely due to the oil starvation.
I would go with a full teardown, checking everything before I would chance it.
In the history you did not mention noticing a sudden loss of oil pressure or warning lights going on. No telling how long it was driven like that and what other damage was sustained.

"Keep in mind these bearings have done about 6-700mi since new."

Did you use plastic guage to check the clearance?
You mention cutting up the oil filter, did you find anything?

 

[C0V3R]

Dont know exactly when I lost oil pressure. It would have been sudden due to the oil pump shaft snapping.

The history is here: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/showtopic.php?tid/1440064/

Summary - Lifters started tapping at the end of the straight, babied back (~40mph) to the pits for 1-2 mins. Assembly still rotates by hand ok.

No warning lights came on probably because of an issue in the wiring.

I didnt build the shortblock, ford did, so I didnt check the tollerances. I havent cut the filter yet. I assume there will be some metallic particles as there were some in bottom of the the sump.

The thing I am most concerned about is that it seems you can see only just copper in one of the bearings. In which case I assume they're fubar and need to be chucked.

 

[wicked93gs]

well, I may not be a veteran mustang engine builder yet, but I have built my fair share of other sorts of engines, if you have ANY doubts about the bearings, replace them, the bearings IMO arent the main area for concern though, the bearing surfaces are, inspect the crank for signs of damage, believe me...just one little scratch can ruin your day(and your engine) happened to one of mine...I decided I didnt need to undersize the crank...I was wrong

 

[Eyeless_Seven]

What kind of warranty did you get on the short block?
I would check into getting a replacement or having that one rebuilt.
I would not reuse any of the bearing's, or even rebuild it without a full tear down. The mains are trashed. I would also check the Rod bearings and replace them, and have a good look at the camshaft.
Headgrinder and 66Runt gave you good advise, and I agree with them both.
I feel your pain, but now is the time to replace and repair any part that is suspect. You would not repair the oil pump shaft with the Jb weld now and resuse it, consider the bearing's, crank and any other part that is damaged,
using the same rule of thumb and it will be cheaper for you in the long run.

 

[doug68hoss]

.its probably like this..if you tried to put this all back together and get this thing to blow up..it would probably run forever...just a thought..never would want you to waste your time or money though..
but you know sometimes things turn out different than planned...

 

[C0V3R]

OK things are looking a little better.

I pulled another main and a rod cap. Both the main and rod cap bearings look to be in excellent condition with slight but even wear. Crank journals all look very good.

I'm going to replace all the crank bearings except perhaps the rear main as it would seem to be exceptionally difficult to replace with the engine in place. Going to do a bit more reading on that one before I make the call.

 

[C0V3R]

What kind of warranty did you get on the short block?
I would check into getting a replacement or having that one rebuilt.
I would not reuse any of the bearing's, or even rebuild it without a full tear down. The mains are trashed. I would also check the Rod bearings and replace them, and have a good look at the camshaft.

Warranty probably isnt worth the time and effort from over the pacific. Also I think the junk came from the oil pump, not the shortblock.

Looks like the rod bearings are good and not in any need of replacing. I will pull a couple more just to check to see if it was a "lucky" bearing.

 

[1320stang]

I see that one stripe of copper showing, I'd check that journal. I have really poor luck, so I'd probably pull the cam and inspect those bearings as well just to be safe.

Let me suggest a source for a new pump and billet shaft. Doug is a great guy and will only sell you what you need. He might even be able to help you determine what caused the failure.

http://precisionoilpumps.com/

 

[Dark Knight]

Did you pull the pickup off the pump? Looks like it might be a piece of that gasket.. or the cover to housing. Another vote to check the crank journal of the bearing that has the groove in it.

 

[C0V3R]

Did you pull the pickup off the pump? Looks like it might be a piece of that gasket.. or the cover to housing. Another vote to check the crank journal of the bearing that has the groove in it.

Yeah I did. Both top and bottom oil pump gaskets are in tact.

I agree, oil pump gasket seems to be the closest match to what was found in the pump.

Here are some pics of the crank journals and a rod bearing