CAI and tune, gains really from the tune?

speed1972 said:

I haven't played with a tuner but can't you adjust rev limiter only without having to load a different tune? That in itself would help with laying this issue to rest.

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From what I have seen, the X-Cal 2 that I have for my car and the Diablosport tune that my cousin had in his car, no. You would need to load a tune, however, you can change the limiter to 6000 RPM for the tune.

I am likely going to the track this friday to test my new 26/11.5/17 MT ET Street Tires. I possibly could redo this test. It would be 12 passes instead of 8. What I would do is:

First 2 passes: Stock Calibration
Next 2 passes: 87 Octane Tune, rev limited to 6000 RPM
Next 2 passes: 87 Octane Tune, rev limited to 6800 RPM
Next 2 passes: 91 Octane Tune, rev limited to 6000 RPM
Next 2 passes: 91 Octane Tune, rev limited to 6800 RPM
Last 2 passes: Stock Calibration

If this makes everybody feel better. Disecting the tune.

The only issue I have would be getting 12 runs in, but I can try...

TGJ said:

I said I wasn't going to do this but...

What you are not seeing. Part of the tune is raising the rev limiter, in my cars case from 6000 RPM to 6800 RPM. I shift it at approx. 6500 when racing. You can't achieve 6500 RPM on the stock calibration, the limiter kicks in. Everything I gained was from the tune, part of it was raising the limiter. I am positive if I *Could* take the stock calibration to 6500 RPM, the gain wouldn't be .5 in the 1/4. Another way to do this would be to restrict the tune to 6000 RPM, but why? CAI WITH tunes raise the limiter to 6500 RPM as well so that is something that those cars see as well.

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I do see that, and said earlier that revving past the stock rev limiter may be good for 1 tenth. And not shifting to 4th also may help lower et's.

Current setup: No CAI, DiabloSport Canned 93 Octane Tune - 13.9 @ 101

(Dyno'd @ DiabloSport's facility 278 RWHP)

MONDAY: Getting the intake and dropping it off @ DiabloSport afterwards for a custom tune and dyno session with and without the CAI installed.

WEDNESDAY: Going to the track

I'll post the dyno results and 1/4 times once I get em'

anticubicle said:

Current setup: No CAI, DiabloSport Canned 93 Octane Tune - 13.9 @ 101

(Dyno'd @ DiabloSport's facility 278 RWHP)

MONDAY: Getting the intake and dropping it off @ DiabloSport afterwards for a custom tune and dyno session with and without the CAI installed.

WEDNESDAY: Going to the track

I'll post the dyno results and 1/4 times once I get em'

Click to expand...

I still want to see some times slips and some dyno sheets on this matter. I own a copy of Drag Racing Analyzer v3.2. I use this program to help me with setting up my car for the strip I did a 05 mustang gt setup and set the peak hp @ 5785 of 300hp. Then I set it up to shift at 6000 rpm. The computer gave it a 13.89@101 with a 60ft of 2.11. I made it shift @ 6500, it ran a 13.81@102. give the program a try. I've been using it for years now and it has help me with my shift points, gear setups, and tire combos.

http://www.performancetrends.com/download.htm

tank_567 said:

I still want to see some times slips and some dyno sheets on this matter. I own a copy of Drag Racing Analyzer v3.2. I use this program to help me with setting up my car for the strip I did a 05 mustang gt setup and set the peak hp @ 5785 of 300hp. Then I set it up to shift at 6000 rpm. The computer gave it a 13.89@101 with a 60ft of 2.11. I made it shift @ 6500, it ran a 13.81@102. give the program a try. I've been using it for years now and it has help me with my shift points, gear setups, and tire combos.

http://www.performancetrends.com/download.htm

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Like I said, I'll post it all next week I've got 14+ passes on the car with the current setup and will likely get some good passes on her next week with the CAI & custom tune installed.

so what ever happened???? its Monday??

#'s are in fellas.

290.2 RWHP with the C&L Street Kit + a custom tune by Kevin @ DiabloSport. We were unhappy with the #'s so there is some more tuning to be done, not to mention the weather was horrible (open garage dyno area). I'm taking it back to Diablo next week for some more minor adjustments and hoping for some cooler weather.

You can see the gains over the Stock Intake Assembly + Tune so those who say the CAI kits are "worthless" or "dont make a difference" can see, you indeed do get some nice gains on them. Note that the only other mod I have is the Steeda Axle-Back

So is that graph showing a 25 peak hp increase from a CAI?

93GrunT said:

So is that graph showing a 25 peak hp increase from a CAI?

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Yes sir. Wish the dyno printout showed the actual peak #'s like others do.

He wants to do more testing on the car next week so we could likely see some more gains from it.

anticubicle said:

Current setup: No CAI, DiabloSport Canned 93 Octane Tune - 13.9 @ 101

(Dyno'd @ DiabloSport's facility 278 RWHP)

MONDAY: Getting the intake and dropping it off @ DiabloSport afterwards for a custom tune and dyno session with and without the CAI installed.

WEDNESDAY: Going to the track

I'll post the dyno results and 1/4 times once I get em'

Click to expand...

Your car is making 290 RWHP now, and made 278 RWHP according to you in the past, read above and you are saying there is a 25 RWHP gain from tuned/CAI over just a tuned car. Hmmm, something is fishy here.

I was just at http://www.diablosport.com Advertised gains of the predator is 15 - 20 RWHP.

I was just at http://www.sctflash.com Advertised gains of the X-Cal 2 is 17 RWHP

I was just at http://www.cnlperformance.com Advertised gains of the no-tune C&L Street kit is 11 RWHP over a stock car, Advertised gains a Diablosport tuner and C&L Street kit is 22 RWHP.

Reading your dyno graph, it says stock VS C&L...

You sure that your comparison is not to a completely stock car?

Now I told you earlier I was going to ask a tonne of questions. I am saying right now your numbers are bogus. Had you done 4 dyno passes and posted them, I may have considered your findings accurate, I don't.

Here is a partial list of the questions I have regarding your dyno run:

1) Was a Baseline run before and after done

2) Hood open or closed

3.1) Rear Tire Air pressure before each run
3.2) Rear Tire Air pressure after each run

4.1) Differential temperature before each run
4.2) Differential temperature during each run
4.3) Differential temperature after each run

5.1) Transmission temperature before each run
5.2) Transmission temperature during each run
5.3) Transmission temperature after each run

6.1) Oil temperature before each run
6.2) Oil temperature during each run
6.3) Oil temperature after each run
6.4) Oil pressure during each run( real oil pressure gauge )

7.1) Power steering oil temperature before each run
7.2) Power steering oil temperature during each run
7.3) Power steering oil temperature after each run

8.1) Coolant temperature before each run
8.2) Coolant temperature during each run
8.3) Coolant temperature after each run

9.1) Exhaust temperature before each run
9.2) Exhaust temperature after each run

10.1) Total timing added/removed CAI installed
10.2) Total timing added/removed tune alone

11.1) Knock Sensor system enabled or disabled
11.2) Was the Knock Sensor system monitored during the run

12) Fuel Pressure during run

13) Maf voltage during run

14.1) Air/Fuel Ratio commanded CAI installed
14.2) Air/Fuel Ratio commanded tune alone
14.3) Actual A/F ratio seen CAI installed
14.4) Actual A/F ratio seen tune alone
14.5) Actual A/F ratio stock
14.6) Where was actual A/F ratio taken from

15) Rev limit setting for each run

16.1) SAE correction factor for each run
16.2) Type of dyno used
16.3) Forward gear used for each run

17.1) Intake Air Temperature during each
17.2) Ambient( Outside ) Air Temperature for each run

18.1) Grade of Fuel used during each run
18.2) Fluids checked and topped up between runs
18.3) Fuel level before each run
18.4) Was fuel added before each run

19.1) Air conditioning on or off during each run
19.2) Heater control settings during each run
19.3) Radio on/off during each run

20) 1 video of a dyno run to verify that the car was being monitored and checked during the dyno pass

OK, I have no experience in this from a Mustang point of view. I am, however, a mechanical engineer and I built a racecar for a senior project. Here is my input into this discussion:

1. Metal vs. Plastic really doesn't matter. Yes, most metals do conduct heat better than most plastics (there are always expections). The air, however, is moving so fast through the intake that there really won't be any difference. The difference in the thermal conductivities between air and metal and air and plastic just is not significant enough for the amount of time the air is in the engine. Remember, air is one of the best insulators, and is very resistant to quick temperature changes due to solid to fluid convection. If by some chance you are sucking in air that is 10 degrees - even 5 degrees - cooler, the metal wouldn't even come CLOSE to offsetting this.

2. Smoothness of airflow makes a HUGE difference. Maintaining a laminar flow through the engine will make significantly more power than turbulent flow. Picture turbulent as rapids and laminar as a calm stream, but don't let the speed of my analogy confuse you. You can have two flows of the same fluid at the same speed where one is laminar and one is turbulent. I haven't seen the intakes or the insides of the tubing, but if the CAI smooths out flow at all, you WILL see gains.

3. Again, I haven't seen the differences between stock and aftermarket intakes... BUT if there is an increase in diameter in the intake tubing compared to stock, even over only a small section, you WILL see power increases. We tested a 24" piece of 3" ID tubing and compared it to a 24" length made up of 4" ID with a 6" long section of 3" ID to keep the same inner restriction. We made sure to keep the fluid profile in laminar flow. We saw approximately 5% power increases with the larger tubing diameter.

4. TGJ, you seem very interested in scientific testing, which is good, but you are missing quite a few things yourself. The dyno IS the most repeatable and consistant testing platform you will get, especially if its in a climate controlled area. You came up with a list of about 50 questions about the dyno testing, yet you made no mention of these questions/answers regarding your testing.

5. Track results are what matters in the end, but statistically, two or even four runs mean NOTHING. When you throw in the number of variables, you'd need more runs than you'd have time to do in order to get truly meaningful results, plus you'd need an automated system to report the results. Here a short list of problems rarely addressed in drag racing that you do not experience in dyno testing:
-Did you refill the gas to the same point is was before? The car weighs less after each run. Yes, I realize there is very little difference.
-Same thing with your weight - did you sweat or eat a snack or drink water or go to the bathroom? Again, the weight changes.
-How much traction are your tires getting at any given moment? This is more in terms of potential, like how much tread is left. Every run will leave you will less potential traction (theoretically).
-Similarly, track conditions cannot be corrected. There are no numbers that factor in the guy that ran in front of you that laid down an awesome patch of rubber on which you can now get more traction off the launch.
-What is the temperature of the tires. Do you even have something to measure that? Everyone knows warmer tires get more traction. Are you accounting for the increase in air pressure in the tires as the tires get warmer? Tire temp makes a significant difference in tire pressure.
-Did you shift at EXACTLY the same RPM every time? Even if you intend to shift at 6000 RPM, you will almost never hit 6000 RPM. Once it may be 5948, next time 6123.
-Exactly how fast were your shifts? Not sure how you are shifting, but how fast did you get back on the gas and into power? How long did it take you to press the gas pedal back down ALL the way?
-Are you correcting for wind? While a headwind usually hurts, remember you are also getting more air to the engine at the same time.

There are more issues, but I think I've made the point that the track is no place for scientific testing. While each of those points individually may not be much, combined they can result in significant error. You can't make 2-4 runs on the track, especially since air, wind, and temp conditions can change so rapidly, and decisively say much.

TGJ said:

Your car is making 290 RWHP now, and made 278 RWHP according to you in the past, read above and you are saying there is a 25 RWHP gain from tuned/CAI over just a tuned car. Hmmm, something is fishy here.

I was just at http://www.diablosport.com Advertised gains of the predator is 15 - 20 RWHP.

I was just at http://www.sctflash.com Advertised gains of the X-Cal 2 is 17 RWHP

I was just at http://www.cnlperformance.com Advertised gains of the no-tune C&L Street kit is 11 RWHP over a stock car, Advertised gains a Diablosport tuner and C&L Street kit is 22 RWHP.

Reading your dyno graph, it says stock VS C&L...

You sure that your comparison is not to a completely stock car?

Now I told you earlier I was going to ask a tonne of questions. I am saying right now your numbers are bogus. Had you done 4 dyno passes and posted them, I may have considered your findings accurate, I don't.

Here is a partial list of the questions I have regarding your dyno run:

1) Was a Baseline run before and after done...ZZZ...
20) 1 video of a dyno run to verify that the car was being monitored and checked during the dyno pass

Click to expand...

:Track:

stangdude2000 said:

2. Smoothness of airflow makes a HUGE difference. Maintaining a laminar flow through the engine will make significantly more power than turbulent flow. Picture turbulent as rapids and laminar as a calm stream, but don't let the speed of my analogy confuse you. You can have two flows of the same fluid at the same speed where one is laminar and one is turbulent. I haven't seen the intakes or the insides of the tubing, but if the CAI smooths out flow at all, you WILL see gains.

Click to expand...

Stock is definitely not smooth as it has folds soon after the filter box


This is seen in all of the aftermarket CAIs

First of all I am not trying to take sides on this, but I don't believe that a CAI makes 25 rwhp over the same octane tune with adjustments for the extra air flow. 12 seems like it would more reasonable and still plenty worth getting the CAI, although part of it could be due slightly to the custom tune.

Let's go over this one time since you think it's "fishy". I'm not going to answer every single one of your trivial questions. The guy's at DiabloSport are professionals and know what they are doing. Every car is not the same, every dyno run will not be the same unless it's some multi-million dollar facility. You can stop your bench racing and go by the actual numbers.

The tuner @ DiabloSport ran the car on the dyno numerous times with the stock intake, with various tunes and then as well with the C&L intake and various tunes.

Contrary to what you (TGJ) claims, it is evident by the #'s that a CAI does indeed make a difference. If you wan't further proof, hell I'll take video footage next time so you can quit your 5000 word essay posts.

DYNO WITH STOCK TUNE + STEEDA AXLE BACK + STOCK INTAKE = 265 RWHP
DYNO WITH TUNE + STEEDA AXLE BACK + STOCK INTAKE = 278 RWHP
DYNO WITH TUNE + STEEDA AXLE BACK + C&L INTAKE = 290 RWHP

Let's do the math...

Mufflers only - 265
Tune & Mufflers - 278
Tune, CAI & Mufflers - 290

That's a 25 RWHP gain with the tune AND CAI over having just the mufflers and a 12 RWHP gain over just the tune & mufflers. According to what I was told by a PROFESSIONAL that does this EVERY SINGLE DAY that we can likely squeeze out some more gains with some more time and tuning, hence me bringing it back by.

As for me only showing 2 runs, he ran the car numerous times on the dyno, I only asked him for the "stock" and "C&L" runs to be printed.

Those numbers sound dead on.

Besides, If a CAI didn't offer any gain, then why would they sell "no-tune" intakes and claim 10+ hp?

I said it before. A CAI AND TUNE MAKES MORE POWER than a tune with stock intake. Hands down. Adding just a tune will not knock 5 tenths off your et there are tons of other factors. Dyno is the best place to test engine performance parts. When companies develop intakes, exhuast, heads etc they dont just make them slap them on a car and see how much faster it is. They run their parts on the DYNO. Thats why when we buy parts it doesnt say "underdrive pullies good for 1-2 tenths off your et", or "longtube headers, track proven to take 2-3 tenths off your 1/4 time". I mean please give me a break.

:Track: or :Zip2: