Car and Driver Review- 05 Stang vs. 05 GTO

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

Hey, I only quote like one or two things... There are A LOT of people that consider the GTO as more than just a performance car... Just because luxury companies offer luxury sports cars doesn't mean they aren't sports car. The M3 is a sports car. (Or at least the closest that BMW offers to one for less than $60K...)The M5 is not. It's a sports sedan. The The GTO isn't a sports car. It's a sports coupe with comfortable accomodations for 4. Though it is argued that the GT is a muscle car and not a sports car, the point it's still a performance vehicle whereas in the GTO performance (such as weight) has been sacrificed for accomodations and handling for ride... (Or maybe because these cars tend to weigh more, the ride gets smoothed out...)

boxerperson · Dec 7, 2004

This is a stupid debate. Totally STUPID.

The GTO and the GT are both good cars. Good performers, nice interiors, nice looks (i like understated things dammit)

I much prefer the mustang, because the GTO is hugely overweight and that's the hardest thing to overcome in a car.

That's the ONLY reason I prefer the Mustang. If the GTO weighed less than the stang...I'd prefer that.

Fast GTO · Dec 7, 2004

2004 IBM M6 GTO: K&N Aircharger, Nitto NT555R Drags, NGK TR55 Plugs, Taylor "409" Wires -
Best 1/4: 13.198sec @ 104.15mph
Best 1/8: 8.478sec @ 83.23mph
Best 60ft: 1.877sec

Yeah, the above is a really ****ty time just having DR's and a CAI....

And that is only an example of an extremely lightly modified GTO.

max2000jp · Dec 7, 2004

Jon Do said:
The GTO is more luxurius given the fact taht you can carry four people more comfortably in it with a smooth ride that isn't totally tuned for absolute performance.

"The same concept applies to BMW's M division. The M3 has a very luxurious interior, with a ton of available high end features. You can get htd seats, Navi, a Harmon Kardon Premium stereo, etc. The M5 has the same core philospies built into it. Any ///M vehicle is built for performance first, luxury second."

But the point is, if you want the BMW that's MOST tricked out for performance, you would look at the M3. It has a harder ride and suspension than most BMw, particularly the six series. The six series is supposed to be a good cruiser whereas the M3 is tricked out for performance.

Basically, again, it comes down to PURPOSE. I don't know how many times I can stress this word. I know that BMWs are more luxurius than GM's and Fords but I am looking at cars with similar purposes. Barring exotics, the M3 functions its purpose in BMW's lineup as the ultimate performance vehicle. It goes around the track faster than the M5s, it weighs less and has a firmer ride than the 6 series. When GTOs are compared to high end BMWs, they aren't compared to the M3 with is BMW's performance vehicle. The Mustang is Ford's basic performance vehicle and with the extinction of the Camaro/Firebird the Corvette is GM's.. The GTO is GM's performance Grand Tourer... It is more similar in purpose to the Lincoln Marc VIII than the Mustang. If the Lincoln Mac VIII was compared to BMWs, it would probably be compared to the 6 series because it is a fairly performance oriented grand touring coupe... Likewise, the GTO is also that type of performance oriented grand touring coupe... It represents what the GTO always represented... And that it is not a Camaro. Now a Camaro, or a Mustang, if compared to BMWs, would be compared to the M3 since that is the BMW 4 seater with the hardest performance bent... The Mark VIII and the GTO would be compared to different cars since they aren't geared all the way to the far end of performance... It is just that in the days of 250 HP family Sedans, the GTO's performance seems historically so high for that type of vehicle... Thank progress for that. There are also cars like the Chrysler 300C and 250 HP Honda Accord that show high HP is now just a trend in the industry...

Now when the Mustang Mach 1 comes out with 5.4 liters and 375 HP for about the price of the GTO, you will know what I am talking about. You will have a car that costs the same price as the GTO from Ford that whoops it in performance. The GT by comparison is like Ford's Subaru Imprez WRX. The "low-end" performance car. When Ford releases a performance Mustang in the thirties, you will know what kind of performance that type of money can buy these days... But that won't make the GTO a bad car... Because there is STILL a certain type of driver would rather have a cruiser than an all out performance car. By nature, a cruiser couldn't be a 2 seater...

Do you really think that if GM wanted to release an out-and-out performance car in the mid thirties (like a high end Camaro updated for 2005) the GTO is the best they could do? In fact People constantly complained about the 2004 GTO having worse performance than the much older Camaro... GM can do a lot better today...

You just don't get it...I am done with this subject, but will correct a few of your errors. First, the E65 M5 is currently BMW's ultimate performance car. Second, the Mark VIII is a luxury coupe. Lincoln is Ford's luxury division, which competes with Cadillac. Pontiac is no where near GM's luxury division. I don't think you understand the marketing aspect behind automobiles and branding. The only reason people compare BMW's high end coupe to the GTO is performance and the fact that it is a coupe. I really think that it's funny that you GTO owners are bringing up a invalid comparison to luxury cars. How about you go over to www.bimmerforums.com and tell them your GTO compares to a 645Ci? I want a good laugh. Good day.

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

"First, the E65 M5 is currently BMW's ultimate performance car."

No, it's not. You can read an article on the holy grail AKA Car and Driver, comparing the performance of an M3 to an M5 and a CTS-V to find out that the M3 does, in fact, perform better than the M5. I think it's available on their website if you want to check it out.

You are right about one thing. The GTO is in no way a luxury coupe. But it is in no way a pony car like the Mustang either. It is a Grand Tourer, designed to be comfortable for a four person trip from NJ to Las Vegas while providing good performance when necessary..

The Mustang wasn't designed for this accomodation aspect. Therefore, some weight can be saved at the expense of interior space, and styling can be funkier at the expense of rear seat head room and accomodations.

The GTO is in no way a 645, but it is in no way a Mustang either. It fills a niche as a near-luxury car (or if you don't like that idea, as a comfortable large coupe in line with a performance version of the old Mercury Cougar). The GTO is somewhere between the 645 and Mustang in purpose. It represents what the GTO always did, and that is not a pony car like the Mustang or Camaro.

If you evaluate it as you would a Mustang or Camaro, of course the 2005 Mustang will seem like the superior car!! (Especially when low-30K versions of the Mustang are available.) If you evaluate them both as grand tourers, of course the GTO will seem superior. That is all I am saying.

Whoever said that the Mustang won't have rebates, every car has rebates. A 2004 RX-8 just came out this year, and it is already available with a $1500 rebate. Sure, demand for the 2005 Mustang will be higher but supply also be 5 times higher. By the end of the year, there will be rebates on the Mustang just as there are rebates on 2/3rds of the cars available in America.

Basically, the Mustang GT was designed to be the ultimate performance vehicle in the low twenties, and the Pontiac GTO was designed to be the ultimate performance grand tourer in the high twenties... Both cars are great for what they are, but not directly comparable. If I leave a forum like stangnet and go to a forum like Car and Driver's own forum, most people there will agree with me on this point.

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

If you want a possible, 1 to 1, direct competitor to the GTO, none exists... But hypothetically, if Ford decided to bring back the Mercury Cougar based on a stretched out version of the Mustang GT platform and with that 375HP 5.4L engine they are developing, now that would be a direct competitor to the GTO. The Mustang however is not. Most people outside these forums can see that.

The only reason I brought up the six series was to point out that the GTO is somewhere between the Mustang and six in purpose. I am not saying that it is out and out comparable to the six either... Just that it is AS comparable to lowly optioned six as it is the Mustang since it is somewhere between the two in purpose...

Fast GTO · Dec 7, 2004

If you threw a nav system into the Goat it would look exactly like a luxury coupe on the inside.

max2000jp · Dec 7, 2004

Jon Do said:
"First, the E65 M5 is currently BMW's ultimate performance car."

No, it's not. You can read an article on the holy grail AKA Car and Driver, comparing the performance of an M3 to an M5 and a CTS-V to find out that the M3 does, in fact, perform better than the M5. I think it's available on their website if you want to check it out.

You are right about one thing. The GTO is in no way a luxury coupe. But it is in no way a pony car like the Mustang either. It is a Grand Tourer, designed to be comfortable for a four person trip from NJ to Las Vegas while providing good performance when necessary..

The Mustang wasn't designed for this accomodation aspect. Therefore, some weight can be saved at the expense of interior space, and styling can be funkier at the expense of rear seat head room and accomodations.

The GTO is in no way a 645, but it is in no way a Mustang either. It fills a niche as a near-luxury car (or if you don't like that idea, as a comfortable large coupe in line with a performance version of the old Mercury Cougar). The GTO is somewhere between the 645 and Mustang in purpose. It represents what the GTO always did, and that is not a pony car like the Mustang or Camaro.

If you evaluate it as you would a Mustang or Camaro, of course the 2005 Mustang will seem like the superior car!! (Especially when low-30K versions of the Mustang are available.) If you evaluate them both as grand tourers, of course the GTO will seem superior. That is all I am saying.

Whoever said that the Mustang won't have rebates, every car has rebates. A 2004 RX-8 just came out this year, and it is already available with a $1500 rebate. Sure, demand for the 2005 Mustang will be higher but supply also be 5 times higher. By the end of the year, there will be rebates on the Mustang just as there are rebates on 2/3rds of the cars available in America.

Basically, the Mustang GT was designed to be the ultimate performance vehicle in the low twenties, and the Pontiac GTO was designed to be the ultimate performance grand tourer in the high twenties... Both cars are great for what they are, but not directly comparable. If I leave a forum like stangnet and go to a forum like Car and Driver's own forum, most people there will agree with me on this point.

Jeez do some research, you are killing yourself. The E65 M5 is a BRAND NEW vehicle, which sas never been comparison tested. The E39 M5 with 400hp was the last generation vehicle, which was the vehicle tested. The new M5 has 500hp and a 7 speed SMG transmission. I have a hard time taking your arguement seriously when you misrepresnet the facts on every posts. You say the 05 GT was built for ultimate performance, well where is my IRS rear suspension and 6 speed transmission. That statement is entirely false. Quit being so blinded by brand loyalty!!! The GTO is a great car, stick to that.

max2000jp · Dec 7, 2004

Fast GTO said:
If you threw a nav system into the Goat it would look exactly like a luxury coupe on the inside.

GM's luxury coupe for example was the Eldorado. Again, the GTO is no where near being classified as a luxury car, even John Do agrees with that. Using that logic, if I put an aftermarket Alpine GPS system in my 05 GT I guess I have a luxury coupe.

Arguing with GTO owners, is like winning the special olympics......

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

"Jeez do some research, you are killing yourself. The E65 M5 is a BRAND NEW vehicle, which sas never been comparison tested."

Look man, we are talking about M5s and I mentioned an M5. Maybe a newer, higher horsepower M5 just came out but even if that's the case a newer, even more high performance M3 will come out in a year or two. So that's a wash. The M3 is still BMW's ultimate performance car (barring exotic, special edition models). The M5 is the larger heavier car if you want less performance but better accomodations. The M5, in purpose, is comparable to other large sedans like the CTS-V... (Or maybe the soon to be released STS-V.) The M3 OTOH sometimes even gets compared to low-luxury performance vehicles like the Evo or STI because, as far as BMWs go, it is the most tuned for performance. That is why it has a less luxurius, harsher ride than most BMWs.

But we are really getting besides the point... The point I am trying to make is that the GTO isn't 1 to 1 directly comparable to the Mustang GT. If Mercury released a new Cougar SVT based on a RWD V8 platform with roughly 400 HP and reasonablly comfortable accomodations for four (once you get in anyway), now that would be a direct competitor to the GTO... The Mustang is not... If you can't admit that, some Mustang owners are slow too.

iviustang50h · Dec 7, 2004

If a non bias person were to come into this forum and read posts about the 05 mustang they would leave thinking two things:

!.) 05 mustang owners sure are passionate about their cars. They really love them!
2.) Are all GTO ownsers a-holes? Why do they come into a mustang forum and bash the 05 mustang?

I am not saying all GTO owners are a-holes, (DocGTO seems like a nice guy), but they rest of you are making a bad name for GTO owners. Stoping being a-holes and take your opinions to your own damn forums! If we want to get overjoyed about Car and Driver giving the nod to the 05 mustang gt over the GTO, then we can and will, but in OUR OWN FORUMS, otherwise is F'N RUDE!

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

"The GTO is no where near being classified as a luxury car, even John Do agrees with that."

Even though I agree with that, I still feel it can be classified as a near-luxury product. I know the brand name isn't exactly luxurius but isn't the Chrysler 300C a near luxury car even though it says "Chrysler" instead of MB on the hood? Isn't a $80,000 VW Phaeton an out and out luxury car, even though it doesn't say "Audi" on the hood?

Personally, if I had a GTO, and someone pulled up in a six series, I wouldn't exactly be jealous of him... Because the GTo would be nearly as good as that car in the meat and potatoes stuff but lack those extra doodads and features that I don't want anyway... I am not saying that the GTO is a luxury car, but I still feel it is near-luxury; and I still feel that near-luxury is so good these days that luxury isn't even necessary for me...

If the GTO had a Navigation system, it would have every feature I wanted in a car... That is the probably the one thing I would really miss out on compared to the 6...

max2000jp · Dec 7, 2004

Jon Do said:
"Jeez do some research, you are killing yourself. The E65 M5 is a BRAND NEW vehicle, which sas never been comparison tested."

Look man, we are talking about M5s and I mentioned an M5. Maybe a newer, higher horsepower M5 just came out but even if that's the case a newer, even more high performance M3 will come out in a year or two. So that's a wash. The M3 is still BMW's ultimate performance car (barring exotic, special edition models). The M5 is the larger heavier car if you want less performance but better accomodations. The M5, in purpose, is comparable to other large sedans like the CTS-V... (Or maybe the soon to be released STS-V.) The M3 OTOH sometimes even gets compared to low-luxury performance vehicles like the Evo or STI because, as far as BMWs go, it is the most tuned for performance. That is why it has a less luxurius, harsher ride than most BMWs.

But we are really getting besides the point... The point I am trying to make is that the GTO isn't 1 to 1 directly comparable to the Mustang GT. If Mercury released a new Cougar SVT based on a RWD V8 platform with roughly 400 HP and reasonablly comfortable accomodations for four (once you get in anyway), now that would be a direct competitor to the GTO... The Mustang is not... If you can't admit that, some Mustang owners are slow too.

The E39 M5 is faster than the E46 M3 in terms of acceleration. Go sit in an E46 M3, it is quite luxurious. Bimmer guys would have a field day with you on that aspect. The new E65 M5(NEW) is faster than both cars by a large margin. Again, any ///M vehicle is about performance FIRST. This has been BMW M's philosophy from the start. Ever seen how they test these cars on the Nurburgring? The CTS-V is the same way. Both cars are for owners who want a sedan, but want sports car performance. As for the EVO and STi, those are bare bone's sports cars. Heck, the 04 STi didn't come standard with a stereo. Does the Mustang not hold 4 passengers? Is it not a coupe? Is it not an American Icon (like the GTO)? Is it not RWD? Does it not have a V8? Comparible content? Those are the reasons why the GTO is compared to the GT. Both cars are great cars, why not compare them? Are you saying that the 05 GT is inferior, thus a comparison is invalid?

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

"2.) Are all GTO ownsers a-holes? Why do they come into a mustang forum and bash the 05 mustang?"

Again, I do not own the GTO. I am a guy that is thinking of buying either car (or the RX-8) in a couple years... The GTO appeals to me because of the grand touring aspect... The Mustang GT appeals to me because of the performance it provides for the price... I am not putting down the Mustang for what it is... I have clearly said, numerous times, that if you want the better performance value, it is the Mustang. I am just saying that I still think the GTO is an excellent value too, for what it is... I am not trying to put down one car; I am trying to praise both for what they are...

Personally I originally went through the touble of registering on these forums because I got tired of seeing Mustang owners bash the GTO because it is not a pony car like the Mustang and Camaro... You have to understand that some people have owned these large rear-wheel drive grand touring cars in the past, and can appreciate that GM is trying to bring that style of car back for an affordable price.. (The only other people that make cars like this now are the luxury companies...)

I am just pointing out that as a potential consumer, I would consider both cars for different reasons... That is not bashing the Mustang.. Just looking at the reality of what the two cars represent.

I am also considering the RX-8... If someone was going to bash the RX-8 for its slow 0 to 60, I would chime in and say that the RX-8 is made for the people who like small good handling cars with a decent amount of power. It is made for the type of consumer who would consider an S-2000 over a Mustang Mach 1 (whenever that car comes out again) or a Porsche Boxster over a Corvette, while adding a little more practicality and slightly less sports over the afformentioned cars as well.. It is not a bad car for its PURPOSE.

If someone on the RX-8 forum was going to bash the Mustang for being big and not as nimble, again i would chime in and mention the Mustang's true purpose.

Again, I am not trying to bash cars or be rude... It just pisses me off when people bash a car without considering its purpose or the type of consumer it is supposed to appeal too...

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

"The E39 M5 is faster than the E46 M3 in terms of acceleration. Go sit in an E46 M3, it is quite luxurious. Bimmer guys would have a field day with you on that aspect."

Look man, do you have a little problem with something called relativity? I know that the M3 is luxurius. It is a BMW after all!! I am just saying that relative to most other BMWs, the M3 is less luxurius since it has a firmer ride and drive that is more geared towards performance than the average BMW...

The GTO also beats the Mustang in acceleration, so what?? The point is cars like the GTO and M5 are too big to be strictly performance cars... They have extra size so that they will be better able to carry a few people comfortably.. An M5 will not go around the track as fast as an M3 because it is simply too heavy...

"The new E65 M5(NEW) is faster than both cars by a large margin."

And the new M3 will be faster than the old M5.. it won't be as fast as the new M5 in a straight line, but it will handle better...

"The CTS-V is the same way. Both cars are for owners who want a sedan, but want sports car performance."

But CTS-V owners are willing to sacrifice some performance to have a large car than can accomodate four people comfortably like an M5 or GTO...

"As for the EVO and STi, those are bare bone's sports cars. Heck, the 04 STi didn't come standard with a stereo."

And yet they are sometimes compared to M3s... The Holden cars such as the GTO when compared to BMWs are compared to M5s. The CTS-V compared to BMWs is compared to M5s... That is because the latter cars are large cars with some of that size sacrificing some performance...

"Does the Mustang not hold 4 passengers?"

Could a Mustang hold 4 passengers comfortably on a road trip from NJ to Las Vegas?

Give it up man!! The GTO is the better grand touring performance coupe than the Mustang.. That is because the GTO actually IS a grand touring performance coupe whereas the Mustang GT is a Pony car.

You could say that either car is better than the other one depending on what criteria is most important to you. If you want a car that has the purpose of a pony car, you will like the Mustang; if you want a car that has the purpose of a grand tourer, you will want a GTO. It is that simple.

iviustang50h · Dec 7, 2004

Jon Do said:
"2.) Are all GTO ownsers a-holes? Why do they come into a mustang forum and bash the 05 mustang?"

Again, I do not own the GTO. I am a guy that is thinking of buying either car (or the RX-8) in a couple years... The GTO appeals to me because of the grand touring aspect... The Mustang GT appeals to me because of the performance it provides for the price... I am not putting down the Mustang for what it is... I have clearly said, numerous times, that if you want the better performance value, it is the Mustang. I am just saying that I still think the GTO is an excellent value too, for what it is... I am not trying to put down one car; I am trying to praise both for what they are...

Slow down man, I wasn't talking to you! I was speaking to GTO owners that come in here and troll these forums!

Jon Do said:
I am just pointing out that as a potential consumer, I would consider both cars for different reasons... That is not bashing the Mustang.. Just looking at the reality of what the two cars represent.

I agree, I never said it was It's nice to see someone making un-bias, logical statements!

Jon Do said:
Again, I am not trying to bash cars or be rude... It just pisses me off when people bash a car without considering its purpose or the type of consumer it is supposed to appeal too...

I never said that mustang owners don't go into GM forums and bash their cars, in fact, I agree with what you said above. So, calm down buddy. Okay?

GTO owners, please prove me wrong!

Jon Do · Dec 7, 2004

Sorry iviustang, I thought you were referring to me... I have a problem where I tend to get too defensive.

iviustang50h · Dec 7, 2004

Jon Do said:
Sorry iviustang, I thought you were referring to me... I have a problem where I tend to get too defensive.

It's cool.

Destiny98 · Dec 7, 2004

iviustang50h said:
If a non bias person were to come into this forum and read posts about the 05 mustang they would leave thinking two things:

!.) 05 mustang owners sure are passionate about their cars. They really love them!
2.) Are all GTO ownsers a-holes? Why do they come into a mustang forum and bash the 05 mustang?

That's probably what a Ford-biased person would think. A non-biased person, if reading this thread, would see plenty of flames to go around, from both sides.

torqueIT · Dec 7, 2004

Soooooooooo...

Mustang's rocks, GTO's rocks, BMW's rock!

Now that we're all shiny and happy people once again...

How about dem' Bronco's?

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