Need Help, Car Wont Start, I've Gone Through Both Checklists

93silverlx50

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I've gone through both the cranks no start checklist and the surging idle checklist with no luck. The car has the following mods: 306, S Trim, E 303 Cam, Trick Flow Heads, Cobra Upper and Lower intake, 24lb injectors, calibrated MAF, Vortech FMU and pump, MSD 6AL box, MSD Boost Timing Master and the retard knob is at .25. (I have zero clue on how they work or how to bypass them)

When it ran, the car always had trouble cranking. It would slow crank and then start at a low idle then rev up to normal idle after about 2 seconds. It then ran great. When it was warm it seemed to slow crank if I tried to start it. I was driving it one day and it all of a sudden stumbled, popped and lost power. If I gave it gas the RPMs would drop. As I slowed to a stop, it died. Wouldn't start after that.

While going through the checklists I also replaced parts along the way. I've replaced the dizzy (used Motorcraft), ECT, ignition switch, IAB, cleaned MAF, cleaned salt and pepper shakers, cleaned EGR (car has no emissions) replaced the ECU, replaced the starter, replaced the plenum gasket, Base timing is at 9.

The car will occasionally start when it's cold. The idle bounces all around and it usually stalls. It sound like it's in limp mode. Today it started twice, once it started it died. I started it again as it was not warm yet and it stumbled around a bit, long enough for me to check timing. It doesn't respond to giving it gas.
I'm pasting the checklist below with my test results where the asterisk is. I know this is long but I am about at the end of my rope.

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected 5.0 Mustangs model years 1986-1995

A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.


Revised 16 Mar-2017 to add information on the ignition switch fuse link.

All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

* Nice fat blue spark and coil also bench tested within range.

No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD, Crane, or other ignition box if present - Bypass it and return to stock configuration if possible. Do this as a temporary measure to eliminate it as a possible problem source.
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp [fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer. Don’t replace the computer just because you don’t understand how it works. Computers seldom fail, it usually is a sensor or wiring problem that causes the problems.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.

* Ground is good.

K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red/blue wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI.
See the Ignition switch wiring diagram for more information on the ignition wiring fuse link because it is the next thing to be tested. You will need a Multimeter or DVM and know how to use the Ohms function to check continuity between the red/green wire on the ignition coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. Make sure that the ignition switch is in the off position when you do the check. You should see less than 1 Ω (Ohm) between the red/green wire on the coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. More than 1 Ω means that the fuse link may have blown open and needs to be replaced. If you get 1 Ω or less means the fuse link is OK and the ignition switch is bad.

* Replaced the switch

Wiring Diagrams:

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

*Good spark at plugs.

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

* Attempted with both spout in and spout out. No start.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 2-4 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.

* Fuel pump primes in run, once when turning the key to run for about 4 to 5 seconds and then again a short time later if you leave the key in the run position.

attachment-php-attachmentid-68357-stc-1-d-1322348015-gif.577651.gif


If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.

* Fuel pressure is at about 38 to 40 lbs. Also, after continuous cranking the plugs are soaked.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.

I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
B.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
C.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).

* Check several injectors with my noid light. Noid light flashes as it should during cranking

See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
temp_hash-3ef2497fff29a7a9daee955cf93e5805-jpg.577652.jpg

The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.


D.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
E.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.

* Replaced IAB, won't start. Won't start with pedal 1/4 way down either.

B.) Failed computer (not very likely)

* Computer was replaced.

C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off:

* Timing is at 9.

only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.

* Stabbed dizzy 3 times to ensure it was 180 out

D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

* Verified timing order and check plug wires for burns.

E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it, if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.

* Replaced the ECT, no start.

F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.

* No work on motor

KOEO
34
85
34
85

Car won't start for me to get running codes since it ran for about 3 minutes while I verified timing.
 
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imp

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@93silverlx50
The no-start condition: did it just suddenly happen out of nowhere, or were there possible clues before? Anything at all which seemed unusual. imp
 

93silverlx50

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@93silverlx50
The no-start condition: did it just suddenly happen out of nowhere, or were there possible clues before? Anything at all which seemed unusual. imp

It happened when the car left me stranded.

When it ran, the car always had trouble cranking. It would slow crank and then start at a low idle almost stalling then rev up to normal idle after about 2 seconds. It then ran great. When it was warm it seemed to slow crank if I tried to start it. I was driving it one day and it all of a sudden stumbled, popped and lost power. If I gave it gas the RPMs would drop. As I slowed to a stop, it died. Wouldn't start after that.
 

93silverlx50

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I also noticed this plug hanging from underneath. It looks like it's part of the harness that leads up to the pass side near the MAF area. I can't find where it should plug in though. It's connector is similar to the secondary ground near the battery. Its a yellow or orange wire with a pink stripe.
 

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imp

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Jul 13, 2017
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@93silverlx50
Sorry, I am not "up" on aftermarket stuff that you mention, so really can't comment (Barnes ?). But certainly, a disconnected wire might mean something, eh? Couldn't figure out from your list if you meant there is spark and fuel. I take it the eng. is fuel-injected? Thus, what level of Electronics does it have? IOW, how is crankshaft position determined? Position sensor or Distributor? imp
 

93silverlx50

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Lol, should have been harness.

Yes, it's a 93 with fuel injection. I have fuel pressure and signal to the injectors. I've got spark at coil and at the plugs. (Checked two)

When I stabbed the dizzy, I bumped the ignition until I felt the hard rush of air out of cylinder #1. As soon as I felt the hard rush of air, I stabbed the dizzy.

(First time I've ever installed a distributor so I did it again and again and again after reading several how to's)
 

jrichker

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I also noticed this plug hanging from underneath. It looks like it's part of the harness that leads up to the pass side near the MAF area. I can't find where it should plug in though. It's connector is similar to the secondary ground near the battery. Its a yellow or orange wire with a pink stripe.
That's the O2 sensor ground and the low oil quantity plug.

The O2 sensor heaters have their own ground (HEGO ground) coming from the computer. This is different and separate from the O2 sensor ground. It is an orange wire with a ring terminal on it. It is located in the fuel injector wiring harness and comes out under the throttle body. It gets connected to a manifold or bolt on back of the cylinder head. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts


Have you done the noid light test to see if the injectors are firing?




Putting the distributor back in and setting the timing.

Revised 15-Apr-2016 to add fix for TFI hitting the thermostat housing while trying to set the base timing at 14°.

You can forget about anything beyond this point if you don't have access to a timing light. You will never get the timing set right without one.

Note: If you don't have access to a timing light, most of the larger auto parts stores will rent or loan one if you have a credit card or leave a cash deposit.



Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole, crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.

The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.

Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang if you follow the spark plug wire order on the distributor cap. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range. If the TFI prevents the distributor from being turned enough to get 14°, there is a simple fix. Pull the distributor out and turn the rotor 1 tooth counterclockwise Don't move the wires from the positions shown on the cap on fuel injected engines!!!! The #1 position cast into the cap MUST have the spark plug wire for #1 cylinder in it. Do it differently and the timing for the fuel injectors will be off. The computer uses the PIP sensor to time injector operation by sensing the wide slot in the PIP sensor shutter wheel. If the injector timing of #1 and the firing of #1 do not occur at the right time, the injector timing for all other cylinders will be affected.

Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.

10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.

Note: setting the timing beyond the 10 degree mark will give you a little more low speed acceleration. BUT you will need to run 93 octane to avoid pinging and engine damage. Pinging is very hard to hear at full throttle, so it could be present and you would not hear it.

Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.

ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.

The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.

To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.

The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see than the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.

At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.

Remove the SPOUT connector (do a search if you want a picture of the SPOUT connector) It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT
Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.

Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

 
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93silverlx50

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So when putting the distributor in, pull #1 plug. I bump the starter solenoid with my finger over plug #1 hole. Keep bumping it until I feel the STRONG rush of air. Then rotate the crank clockwise or counterclockwise until the pointer lines up with zero. Then stab the distributor with the rotor at about 11:00 and when the #1 plug (when the cap is on) is it 12:00. After installing, the rotor spins to where the left edge of the rotor contact point is about 1/8" from where the #1 plug on the cap hooks up. Is that correct?
 

93silverlx50

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Yes. I turned the crank about an inch counter crosswise to line up zero with the pointer. Then I set the timing.

I did the noid light test, it flashed as it should telling me the injectors are getting signal from the ecu. I also used a long screwdriver and put it on several injectors and put the handle to my ear. I can hear them pulsing.
 

93silverlx50

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Tried starting fluid. Both spout in and out, 1/4 throttle, full throttle and zero throttle. No start.
 

93silverlx50

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I do have a timing light. It's set to 9*. It was at 13* and the car behaved the same.

My Harmonic Balancer wobbles pretty good. I'm wondering if I could spun it, could that have caused the car to go into a limp mode type state and die? If I spun it, maybe it's not truly at 9*?

I don't know anything about HB or how they work...
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
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They are pretty simple things and not expensive to replace.
It takes a puller to take off, DO NOT hammer the new balancer on.
I would suggest going back to basics on why the engine will not start, you have determined there is no spark, go through the ignition system using the checklist, it will likely be something simple.
 

93silverlx50

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I DO have spark, at the coil and at the plugs as well as fuel and good fuel pressure.

I'd agree, I think it's something stupid, wire unplugged, relay, etc. Funny thing is I had the window wobble on the car for the last 12 years. I finally realized I had the wrong bushings in and fixed it with the correct bushings just before this happened. I was so excited the windows don't wobble anymore and now I can't even enjoy the wobble-free glass! Lol

One thing that has remained consistent, car will only start very cold, like first attempt of the day. TFI is a used one off a running car. ECT is brand new.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
Aug 25, 2016
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Well there you go, if you had not fixed the wobbly window you would not be in this predicament!
Swap out that tfi with a quality new one.
I reread some of your posts, there is a possibility you are one tooth off on your distributor but I'm not standing there so check it again. I don't think one tooth off will cause your problem cause you can twist the distributor to make it run. You and I agree, this is going to be a head slap'n 'can't belive I missed that' moment when you find the problem.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
Aug 25, 2016
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After reading the first post over again to things jump out at me,
Msd ignition box/boost control
Slow cranking condition
Did you by it with these problems?
 
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