Clarkson rants on Americans and Mustang

This guy Clarkson is a bozo. It's amazing that this thread has gone to two pages.

Uhh, show me the allmighty UK auto industry....hehehe.....uhhh...that's right it does not exist....It is either owned by US, germans or bankrupt. Yeah, take that you ignorant imperialist bufoon Clarkson!

Clarkson is the Geraldo Rivera of the automotive press.

"never let the facts get in the way of a good story" mentality.

shooterm1 said:

*** >>> Breast extensions? <<< ***

(something about that just dont seem right .......... what is it?)

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The guy can't even get "big tits' right.

wht-v6-vert said:

Interesting commentary.

I hope you’ll understand the American tendency to lump all of Great Brittan, Ireland and Wales together; the city I live in (Chicago) has three times the population of Wales.

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You know, I shouldn't really pick this but the population of Chicago is 2.8 million and the population of Wales is 2.9 million so your "math" is a little awry.

LuS1fer said:

You know, I shouldn't really pick this but the population of Chicago is 2.8 million and the population of Wales is 2.9 million so your "math" is a little awry.

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You Limeys do your homework. Metro Chicagoland is 9.6 million. That 2.8 million is just within the city limits. There have even been a few Welsh Warriors over the years:

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1333.html

I admire your attention to detail.

Ah, I get it - urban sprawl. So Wales has a population of 60 million "outside the country limits"? Metro Wales we call it.

So if London has a population of 7.5 million, if I understand the detailed crux of your argument, after considerable homework, it's that the USA has a larger population than the UK (I knew that) and having a large population means you don't need to know about anything outside America (I knew that too)

BTW I understand Bomber50's point about the lack of a UK car industry (aside from developing nearly all the F1 cars) but we're not the silly buggers who bought it. But let's not forget, we still build them. It goes like this - you buy the company, you make the losses, you pay us. Sounds like a good deal all round although here in the UK, we tend to close companies that don't make a profit but we are indebted to all the American car makers who keep our workers in a job. I'd include the Germans but they seem to be making profits.

BTW, no offence intended, just americaning your chain....

LuS1fer said:

the USA has a larger population than the UK (I knew that) and having a large population means you don't need to know about anything outside America (

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You are absolutely correct.

You seem to have a passing interest in cars, so let me elucidate the American perspective on automotive culture. It is no coincidence that Route 66 began its meander to Los Angles in Chicago. The exact spot where Route 66 began, at State St. and E. Adams in the Chicago Loop, is not coincidentally the axis upon which the entire fabric of the space time continuum rotates.

The farther you are from State and Adams, the less consequence you are in the automotive firmament; hence the cultural irrelevance of anything in the UK. You shouldn’t be offended; it is just the happenstance of the Big Bang.

A few years ago there was a billboard in Detroit that had a picture of a Corvette, the caption was “They don’t write songs about Volvos”. They don’t write them about Vauxhalls, Rovers or Daimlers either.

Don’t let this get you down; you Welsh have H.R.H. Prince Chuck as your spokesmodel.

Well I think you'll find that the Industrial Revolution started in the UK when you were still shooting native Americans. If it weren't for Great Britain, you still would be. I guess Route 66 started in Chicago as they couldn't get out of there fast enough.

They don't write many songs about cars here but then we don't write country and western songs either. Oddly enough, the only songs that have been written have tended to be written about Ford Cortinas - you know, simple cars with leaf springs. Must go with the turf. However, not sure how many years ago you're talking but my guess is they won't be writing any songs soon about the C6 unless it's something along the lines of "Why did they hit me with an ugly stick".

Loved the C5 Z06 though. That's why I bought one. But I don't recall being moved enough to go writing a song about it.

You know, it was believing that the US was the centre of the automotive firmament that led American manufacturers into the trouble they're in now and why they're still nowhere near to competing in a meaningful sense in Europe.

I also think it probable that if they hadn't wasted their time writing songs about their cars, the Japanese (who didn't write any songs about their cars although the Beach Boys tried) wouldn't have had such an easy time stealing all your sales. Of course they didn't write any songs about Volvos but Ford still bought it. Why? Because they wanted cars that would sell in Europe.

Don't sweat it. When the big automotive bundle blows, it's only the companies who sell cars at a profit that will actually still exist. That may be Europe, it may be Japan but my guess is it won't be American. One day when Toyota own Ford and GM, we'll see who's still laughing. Just a thought.

Oh, you really had me /// up `til this >>>

LuS1fer said:

One day when Toyota own Ford and GM, we'll see who's still laughing.

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Your UK team spirit is admirable, if a little odd from the US perspective.

As a nation of immigrants, where the “..tired huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, the retched refuse of your [Europe’s] teaming shore..” are welcomed with open arms, we in America are often bemused by the provincialism of our cousins from across the sea. America ain’t an exclusive club; all you’ve got to do is get on a boat and you're an American. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of people here who show up for work every day without citizenship, a passport, a Visa or a work permit, but that’s another story.

No other nation produces anything on the same scale as the US. In 1950 fully one half of the entire world’s auto production was made by Detroit. The car business has become global in the succeeding decades, but the US still dominates.

A few years ago the media made a big deal about Airbus selling more planes than Boeing for the first time ever. There were dire predictions about the US airplane industry. Boeing quietly developed the carbon fiber 787 while Airbus promoted the 380, a larger version of old technology. Airbus is now stumbling, and the 787 will change the economics of the airline industry.

Ford and GM are going to take their licks in the short term, but I am convinced they will prevail.

It is a time honored American tradition that first you get a bloody nose, and then you kick the muther*****er’s ass. Every December 7th, Pearl Harbor Day, we are reminded of this.

I think you're labouring under a misapprehension that Europeans want to live in America. A lot do but they also like line-dancing and wearing cowboy hats. I love the cars but I'd rather live in France or Spain. It's true to say that a lot of people fled to America to escape oppression in Europe but that was a long long time ago. Illegal immigrants flock to the US because (a) it's nearest and (b) they live in poverty. To be honest, there are just as many people fleeing to the UK in terms of illegal immigrants (from former Communist countries) because eventually this Government will give them a house and free benefits. Personally, whilst I defend this country's achievements which still rank with the best, I have long since lost the will or desire to actually live here. Sad but true. I have lost faith in this country just as we have lost the point of your argument which has long since passed me by (probably in one of those Boeings...)

If the US motor industry still dominates, it is because you sell all your cars to the US (pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap) and the size and population of the US may well keep it that way although I continually dismay at the cahet a lot of Americans attach to owning an "import".

However, you still have an absurdly cheap (and corrupt) dealer system and it seems to me that the US manufacturers have to make a profit somewhere along the line. Without a sea change in the car sales industry, I'm not sure they can do that except by paying cheap wages and risking their worker's pensions. It's all very well taking the licks as long as you're not the guy on the production line taking them.

I for one would love to see Ford and GM succeed and dominate the car industry like they did in the 50's but the world has changed. At one point, it was a very basic family car that used to be the best-seller in the UK in the family car sector and now it's the BMW 3-series. People don't want a pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap system any more, they want a "prestige" badge and the US will probably go the same way. Last year, the "sports" derivative of the Mondeo sold a paltry 900-odd units, making it quite exclusive but certainly not prestigious enough for the upwardly mobile. This is why Ford bought Aston Martin, Jaguar and Volvo but are learning the hard way that it's not enough to have a prestigious badge unless you invest the time and money into making it a driver's nirvana, especially starting from 10 years behine BMW.

It would be nice if the US makers would sell actually sell us the Mustang, the Camaro and the Challenger but they won't because they are American icons and they don't see that selling an American muscle car has any relevance to the UK. Sad, because the reception for these cars has been incredibly good here but they're still too expensive over here with the taxes added on and Ford and GM still doggedly refuse to engineer their interesting cars for RHD. Which is good for me because I like my car to be exclusive.

The most important factor for me is that I will keep buying my American muscle cars because they have soul and it would be a real shame if they ever stopped making the muscle cars (the rest of the ho-hum rubbish they can keep) so I hope they prevail for that reason alone. However, no-one ever thought British Leyland would collapse or that Rover would go under either. It was unthinkable. I'm afraid that kicking other people's asses requires rather more than just one or two good models and it's disconcerting to watch Chrysler begin doing what Leyland did all those years ago - essentially producing 3 cars - the 300, Charger and Challenger - which are essentially badge-engineered versions of the same car. It looks like they're competing with themselves because the sort of person who likes a 300 is going to like the Charger and Challenger's looks too.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy Pearl Harbour Day. The Japanese don't have an equivalent celebration but show no particular signs of having been too troubled by the ass-kicking they once had dealt to them. An ass-kicking soon gets better but a successful and constantly mutating virus is often far more effective unless you happen to have invented a certain cure. However, the tide can be stemmed. Japanese cars once began to look unstoppable in Europe but the European manufacturers fought back with dynamically superior cars that were built better and now, it's pretty much the German, French and Italian marques that head the sales charts.

Marketing is a key area. Here in Europe, GM decided to rebrand the Daewoo cars as Chevrolets. That should tell you all you need to know about the prospects of a successful US car market in Europe.

I can’t remember what this thread was originally about, but I am very pleased you have an interest in American muscle cars.

I am unable to abandon this discourse without confessing to have been an automotive anglophile as a youngster. My first car was an MG TF 1500, bought for $50 when I was in high school. It ran, but the transmission only had two out of four speeds available; and the master cylinder had spewed its vital essence all over the firewall. (I still have a set of Whitworth sockets, very useful on modern machinery.)

In my wonder years I drove several old MGs, a TR4 and a magnificent old Jaguar XK 150 S Roadster before I bought my first American car, a used 1964 Chevy Impala SS convertible. The power and reliability of the big cast iron V8 was an epiphany.

The Impala and XK 150 were a study in contrasts. The Chevy engine was a crude looking lump of iron painted orange, the Jaguar 3.8 (later used in the XKE) had a meticulously finished aluminum head and cam covers, the exhaust manifolds were even finished in dark blue enamel and bolted on with chrome acorn nuts. It was a work of art.

The Chevy ran like hell and parts were cheap, perhaps a metaphor for the US car industry.

I urge you to immigrate. County music and line dancing are an embarrassment to most of us over here, and you will find little of it outside isolated areas of the rural south. The supposition is that isolation lead to inbreeding. Could have happened in any country.

LuS1fer said:

My pet gripe too but you have to remember that the cars sell for far more in the UK. A Z06 is around £60k-65k which is about $100k plus. Hence the comparisons which appear unfair as they're based on the UK price comparison complete with profit margin, 10% import duty and 17.5% tax. The opposite applies to the US where you pay more for exotics (relatively).

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I've seen the Z06 for £58,000 on the road. This is a lot of performance for the price. A 911 Turbo which was out performed in comparison test cost £100,000. Outside of Catherhams, Radicals, or Ariels which are purpose built racing "cars" -- there are few if any cars that can match the $/performance of the Z06 or regualr C6.

I believe GM has talked about bringing the Camaro to the UK -- they haven't confimed it though. The American cars aren't really overly expensive in the UK, but the overall cost of buying/owning any vehicle is more than the US. The Mustang GT is ~£23,000 which is comparable to other sporty cars like the EVO ~£28,000 or 350z ~£27,000.

Marketing is a key area. Here in Europe, GM decided to rebrand the Daewoo cars as Chevrolets. That should tell you all you need to know about the prospects of a successful US car market in Europe.

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I thought the US makes were already successful in Europe -- GM, Ford and DC have about 30% market share combined.

Here is the latest release from GM Europe: http://media.gm.com/servlet/Gateway.../viewpressreldetail.do?domain=137&docid=29506 Considering it's a new brand, Chevrolet seems to be doing very well.

You can get a Z06 for £58k in theory but in reality, most have been ordered fully specced with the polished wheels and so forth and with the demand for the Z06 (great car, shame about the boat race), it's pretty much Hobson's choice. The Z06 is certainly great value, even in Europe but it's an exception and the fact remains that the UK is one of the biggest markets for fast cars and LHD essentially destroys it's chances of being a sales success in the UK.

The Mustang can be had for £23k if you import one yourself. Some of the ads for Mustangs here are very misleading and often say "from £23k". It's reasonable value but you get a pretty basic car for that and a Premium with the interior upgrade (pretty essential when even economy cars have a better interior than the Mustang) tend to run out at more like £27k. However, the fact that a 350Z retails for that money is irrelevant because it's RHD and the Mustang is LHD and that rules the Mustang out for 99% of buyers. Vauxhall do a far better trade in Monaros as they're RHD. Mustangs are a great second-hand buy though as you can pick one up with a few thousand on the clock for under £20k...and yet LHD and gas prices and "myths about gas-guzzling" keep them a rarity.

Ford and GM are doing very well in Europe selling domestic products and not American products. That has always been the case. I'm not sure about Europe but in the UK, Cadillac have made little or no impression even though TG gave the CTS a reasonable write-up. Chrysler have done a little better with the 300 series but I can still count the numbers I've seen round here on one hand. The PT Cruiser has become unfashionable and the next big white hope is the quasi-Jeep looking Dodge Caliber which may catch on but will have to compete with real 4x4's and with Hyundai upping their game in the Santa Fe, it could be an uphill battle. Jeeps have been average sellers but nothing like Land Rovers.

Chevrolet in Europe is comprised exclusively of Daewoos. The cars are OK but hardly Chevrolets. The Corvette is marketed under it's own "Corvette" marque to distance it from the Daewoos and while there have been horrifically vague rumours about bringing the new Camaro to Europe, there are huge stumbling blocks in it's way, namely:
(1) The Camaro is and could only ever be a Chevy. It has a retro theme and a history as big as Schwarzenegger (none of which is known to 98% of the UK populace who have nevr previously heard of a Camaro). It could not possibly fit into a line-up of Daewoos without looking rather odd.
(2) It would still be LHD. Despite a very positive reception, the market in the UK is still tiny for LHD vehicles. In Europe, that's not a problem but the dealer network tends to be appalling and only few nominated dealers would have a clue how to service one.
(3) Europe already has the Monaro and is due to get the new 4 door Monaro soon. Again, we get RHD so it will sell but still the deaklers authorised to service these cars are few and far between. It would make absolutely no sense to rebadge the Camaro as a Vauxhall due to the historic Chevrolet lineage and redesigning it would be a bit pointless.

LuS1fer said:

I think you're labouring under a misapprehension that Europeans want to live in America. A lot do but they also like line-dancing and wearing cowboy hats. I love the cars but I'd rather live in France or Spain. It's true to say that a lot of people fled to America to escape oppression in Europe but that was a long long time ago. Illegal immigrants flock to the US because (a) it's nearest and (b) they live in poverty. To be honest, there are just as many people fleeing to the UK in terms of illegal immigrants (from former Communist countries) because eventually this Government will give them a house and free benefits. Personally, whilst I defend this country's achievements which still rank with the best, I have long since lost the will or desire to actually live here. Sad but true. I have lost faith in this country just as we have lost the point of your argument which has long since passed me by (probably in one of those Boeings...)

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I would like to point out that many Europeans in fact want to move to the United States. I won't speak for our friends in the UK, but it isn't uncommon for German and Italian women to marry American soldiers for the sake of moving to the United States. So certainly there is a population that wants to move to the US, and none of which like line dancing or wearing Cowboy hats. Which you aren't denying, but the line-dancing thing bothered me a bit.

Similarly, there is still undoubtably a European infatuation with US pop culture, specifically music and clothing styles. I'm an American who has done significant travelling through Europe (hell I live here in Europe) and everything from radio stations to clubs, for example, play 80% American music. Nor do you have to walk very far through most European cities to notice how many people where blue jeans, as another example. I think there is still a perception that America holds something more exciting for Europeans, generally speaking of course. Maybe not in terms of religious freedom or all the things that drove Europeans here during the 1600s and 1700s, but more exciting in terms of less tangible things like pop culture, materialism, entertainment, etc.

I come from California, my state is arguably one of the most racially diverse places in the world, and there are plenty of immigrants that come from all corners of the world there. It is our neighbors to the south (Mexico) that get most of that attention, because of the illegal immigrant problem. For instance, where I grew up there were sizable populations from Southeast Asia (Cambodians, Hmongs, Vietnamese), Indians, Assyrians, and of course Hispanics from Latin countries other than Mexico like Argentina or Colombia. None of which are anywhere near the United States.

The only other places where I've seen any substatial diversity are places like Amsterdam and Copenhagen. Perhaps London, but I haven't been there yet. Either way living in an area of California where the decendants of Europeans make up less than 50% of the population gives you a perspective of what real diversity is, and I just haven't seen that here in Europe.

Anyway, it is my opinion that many Europeans don't like to acknowledge the influence and the reliance they have placed upon the United States for nearly the last century (most notably from 1941 to 1991), but even afterwards when one considers conflicts like Bosnia and Kosovo. Europeans especially don't like to acknowledge the contributions of the US now that the Cold War has been over for 15 years, and especially in light of the last 6 years of the current Presidential administration. However, it is also that very same reliance that makes many American's cocky about our position as a world super power. Which is why we get internet arguments like the one we just had.

The fact is that the United States and Europe both belong to the same basic civilization known commonly as "The West." The problem is that we are two sides of the same coin with significantly different outlooks on the world around us.

Now we are way off topic, but I felt like sharing.

Hey, I know plenty of people who want to move to the US but to be honest, for all the wrong reasons. They tend to fall in love with the American Dream. I know guys who own American cars who live and breathe the desire to have a hot 60's muscle car, drive up and down Woodward Avenue and stop off for a soda at the doughnut shop. Sadly, as with Disney, much of the US has become a cliche, mainly of everything it isn't and Hollywood is largely to blame for the fake aspects of the US which pale into insignificance compared to some of the far far greater things about your country. I should say too that my sister lives there but went only with her husband's career but yes, she loves it. The one thing I do envy you is the size of your houses and your garages. I think a lot of people envy that space you get in the US for a far lesser price than we have to pay for a small box.

Like the UK, the US has it's bad side. You have some very small-minded and inward-looking folk and some who are not so much patriotic as fanatical, if you get my drift. Ironically, you speak of religious freedom and I read tales of nuts denying evolution and trying to force religion down kids' throats under the pretext of it being a science and you tend to have more than your fair share of religious oddities (I keep an open mind but have to laugh at the absurdity of some). If ever there was a country which proclaimed freedom and spent 99% of the time making it's citizens into conformists, the US must be a top candidate. But I am probably dealing in more cliches here.

The UK is extremely diverse and much of our population has multi-cultural backgrounds even if races tend to form communities in specific areas because they identify with that ethic background or a particular religion but equally there are people of every race, colour and creed here and being a nation surrounded by sea, you can appreciate why that is. They come here. They settle here. I can't comment on Germany or Italy because I've never been there either but for example, Florida never seemed to me be particularly diverse but maybe I only saw the tourist side.

I understand your point about people wanting to move to the US but it's not just the US. Sure, you'll have lots of people from other countries besides South America but my guess is they're fleeing poverty and like the UK, they think that other countries will bring them wealth and the US can't complain when they've done such a good job of selling "the Dream". The same applies to the UK. Do you know how many countries these refugees have to pass through to get to the UK? All the ones who don't have a freeloading welfare system for a start. I went to India last year and was astounded that in such a beautiful country, nearly everyone wanted to come to the UK to become a taxi driver! Why? Because they think you come here and get given a council house and earn good money. They have no idea of the cost of living in a country like the UK but it beats abject poverty and as you have noted, it's anywhere in "the West" that appeals and reality has nothing to do with it.

I would certainly agree with you that the US has had a huge influence on the world in the last century. It led the way on so many things. Nearly all UK cars at one time aped American styling in a smaller form but arguably whilst Europe moved on, the US got stuck and is now reliving it's glory days through the power of retro design. And why not. If anyone can lay claim to some of the most iconic designs ever, it has to be the Americans although I'm not sure that blue jeans, growing out of the attire of slavery, should be considered as anything other than a masterpiece of marketing. LOL.

Anyway, if retro aircraft ever come back in, we've got it made with the Spitfire. It seems to me though that the US needs to get back to leading and not trying to compete with an often inferior package. You can do it when you try - the Ford GT and Z06 prove that - but ultimately what's good for a rain-soaked switchbacked, heavily trafficked country like the UK may be useless for the grid pattern Us and maybe the twain can never truly meet in a single vehicle.

Anyway, I have no idea how Clarkson got us here and I think that under the surface, we're probably Allies through similarities rather than differences. Like anyone, there will always be a different outlook and perspective and long may it remain so.

Don't sweat the junk-journalism! It's always a shame to see such close cousins at each others throats - the bottom line is, the US and the UK have more in common, culturally speaking, than is at first obvious. Both countries have a swagger that grates, which is probably why Brits and Yanks are quick to rile each other.

As for Ford and GM, yep, they've messed up. Yep, they pay $M's to exec's who are running their companies into the ground. But it's not like bad decisions and greedy management are restricted to the US. To be honest, I think that the real reason for the demise of the US automakers is the massive flood of cheap labour (legal or otherwise) into the country - if you're making minimum wage and have 20-odd mile drive each-way to work which takes anything up to an hour (anyone commute the 405/55/91 freeways in Southern California, feel free to chime in!), you want low $ sticker, low $ gas and low $ maintenance on your vehicle. Everywhere I look, I see Civics - many stock, many "prettied up", many with coffee-can exhausts. I don't think anyone ever grew up aspiring to own a Civic, but d@mn if they just don't do it all for everyone (at least, for those on a tight budget).

Ford and GM have been caught up by economic reality and are, for now, paddling furiously just to keep theirs heads above water. They were snuck up upon by companies peddaling cost-effective cars in a time when "mpg" and "cost to own" weren't such big factors to buyers in the US. Now that people are more cost(and environment)-conscious, these companies which have become synonymous with durable, affordable quality and low cost to own are putting the hurt on their US counterparts. These "niche" vehicles are quickly becoming the US's top sellers.

I think you missunderstand me LuS1fer, I wasn't making any attempt to dog on the UK, I was merely rebutting a few of the more stereotypical statements you made about the US. I think I have been more than fair in highlighting what I do and do not know, in fact I made no claim about the UK specifically, but I am about to. Furthermore, my examples like blue jeans and music were just examples that were easy to point to, and I picked them to keep my already long post as brief as possible.

As far as racial diversity goes the numbers will bear me out, the United Kingdom despite its diversity is still 92.1% white according to a 2001 UK census. The United States on the other hand is 83.2% white (that 83.2% figure INCLUDES the 11.4% of the population that is hispanic), so as far as "white Europeans" go the United States, as a whole, is only 71.8% white as it compares to the UK's 92.1%. Does that mean the UK is inferior? No, it just means the United States remains a more diverse country nothing more nothing less.

My point is still, much like Celticstanger said, we (the US and UK) are closer than either side really cares to admit. After all it was the UK that essentially passed the torch of world superpower to the US

Finally a little factoid: Blue jeans took hold in the US by Levi Strauss out of San Francisco. He marketed them to the mining communities in California following the 1849 gold rush. That coupled with the fact California was a free state from the beginning, means jeans had little or nothing to do with slavery.

This post has gone on way too long and I will respectfully bow out of this one. I'm sure most people aren't interested in where this thread has gone anyway. Quite frankly this thread needs to end. I always welcome PMs however.

LuS1fer (may I call you Lu?), you’ve provided an entertaining essay on the car culture on the UK, and European popular culture in general. You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into your posts and they were fun to read. Thanks.