Constant Control Relay Module

[imp]

Have had 3 Foxes, this SN95 is my first. Learning quite a bit more was added/changed in '94, aside from the swoop downwards of the upper intake manifold to follow the new hoodline. Awhile back, a guy having starter problems was advised to look at his CCRM. Can't find that thread, but anyway, my Battery Junction Box has 3 plug-in relays, Fog Lights, Starter Relay, and Horn Relay. That leaves what in the CCRM, PCM Power Relay, Fuel Pump Relay, what other(s) am I not thinking of? OK, scratch last question, just found this:

Typically it has 4 or 5 relays.
1. PCM relay
2. High speed cooling fan relay
3. Low speed cooling fan relay
3. Fuel pump relay
4. A/C clutch/compressor relay

From what I can determine, the CCRM has non-replaceable individual relays, would that be correct? The need for these relays is quite clear to me, but the reason for not simply having them in the Batt. Junc. Box, as in Fox Mustangs, is not. PCM and Fuel Pump are the two that might leave ya dead in the water. Anybody know, guess, why they did this Module thing? imp

 

[90sickfox]

It's all about assembly time. The new cars all have multiple modules now. Some cars have 5 or more.

In the 80s cars were built to last a long time. Relays, fuses, and bulbs were standard sizes. They realized that people would replace their own parts and drive hundreds of thousands of miles. The cars made now are like disposable cars. No one wants to have to buy an expensive module or have to go to the dealer for repairs.... so they sell you another car. Its all a hook to get people into newer cars when the old ones break. Dealerships don't even stock parts after 10 years anymore.

I'm sure it was cheaper and quicker for ford to build the CCRM. They didn't care about replacement. As long as it got through the warranty period is all they care about.

 

[imp]

As long as it got through the warranty period is all they care about.

This is decidedly the key. Competition pressure has caused warranty terms to be extended, no doubt. But, how many relays have cycled enough times during warranty to fail? Given reasonably generous contact ratings, the freaking relays ought to last 500K! PCM relay? Cycles only once per drive cycle. Fuel? Ditto. Fan? Many, many cycles. Horn? never. AC clutch: eh, middle of the road. Can live without it if need be.

So, given the value of your opinion, why does my '04 Explorer, 10 years newer, NOT have modular frigging relay banks? They are all plug-in units. Better vehicle, overall? I wonder. imp

 

[90sickfox]

Engineers are stupid....every mechanic knows this...

 

[90sickfox]

Engineers are stupid....every mechanic knows this...

 

[90sickfox]

Why did thy put the ECM under the k member on newer mustangs ? Its literally the lowest thing on the front of the car.

 

[Bullitt347]

Why did thy put the ECM under the k member on newer mustangs ? Its literally the lowest thing on the front of the car.

The ECM/ECU/PCM, all referred to as either the Power-train control module, Engine control module or Engine control unit is located in the engine compartment on the passengers side next to/ under the fuse box. The "ECU" that is by the K member is the controls for the EPAS...also known as the electronic power assist steering. There is no hydraulic power steering pump anymore, it is an electric motor attached to the steering rack.

 

[90sickfox]

I tried to dumb it down a bit....had no idea you were well versed in automotive abbreviations. It is the electronic steering assist module...and still is an Electronic Control Module.

Still....it shouldn't be the lowest thing on the car. Still....it is a bad design.

I work on newer cars everyday...all day. I know more about electronic control systems and can bus lines than I'd ever wish anyone to have to learn. From the cheapest Smart car to twin turbo Porches. All makes and models come through our shop..including Bentley's and Hyundai's.

Over 25yrs diagnosing and repairing cars. All makes and modules call things by different names but they are, essentially, talking about the same thing.

When Chrysler started putting the ECM and TCM under the hood under the battery tray people quickly found out that the heat and moisture caused serious issues for the modules and their harnesses. The same happened when Chevy put their PCM in about the same location on Chevy trucks....so did chrysler, again, when they put the TIPM module under the hood. That thing is a piece of . So is Honda's TIPM.

People that have been doing this for a long time know that nothing is better than mounting an electronic control unit inside the vehicle. Insulating and isolating gel has its limitations over time. Harness seals also have limitations over time. Especially, when exposed to under hood conditions. ( heat, vibration, moisture )

Car companies aren't building cars to last or be simple to work on.

The sad thing is the complexity of vehicle systems keeps increasing....but technician pay and training is not. Electric assisted power steering, braking, suspension dampening, lane departure, and parking are cool....but electrical stuff breaks...and when it does there is no repair...unless your mechanic is an IT tech, too.

That means replacement is necessary and you better hope you can flash or reset the steering angle settings.

The only major repairs used to be limited to engines and transmissions. Now, the module failures and repairs could push the estimated beyond the limits of the average Joe.

So what Fies average Joe do ?....buy another vehicle that has a 3/36 basic and 5/100 power train warranty.

 

[Bullitt347]

I tried to dumb it down a bit....had no idea you were well versed in automotive abbreviations. It is the electronic steering assist module...and still is an Electronic Control Module.

Still....it shouldn't be the lowest thing on the car. Still....it is a bad design.

I work on newer cars everyday...all day. I know more about electronic control systems and can bus lines than I'd ever wish anyone to have to learn. From the cheapest Smart car to twin turbo Porches. All makes and models come through our shop..including Bentley's and Hyundai's.

Over 25yrs diagnosing and repairing cars. All makes and modules call things by different names but they are, essentially, talking about the same thing.

When Chrysler started putting the ECM and TCM under the hood under the battery tray people quickly found out that the heat and moisture caused serious issues for the modules and their harnesses. The same happened when Chevy put their PCM in about the same location on Chevy trucks....so did chrysler, again, when they put the TIPM module under the hood. That thing is a piece of . So is Honda's TIPM.
.

That means replacement is necessary and you better hope you can flash or reset the steering angle settings.
.

Most alignment racks are set up to re-set the steering angle sensor on most cars/trucks. It is all part of the alignment process now.
Porsche Cabriolets are notorious for having the BCM under the drivers seat, the lowest point inside the car, and Cab's are notorious for leaking water when it rains, so the first thing that gets wet is the BCM. Brilliant!
In my experience Fords have very robust electronics. M/B is probably the worst along with Chrysler. They (Chrysler) even put the windshield wiper relay inside the Power-train control module on minivans, (late 90's early 2000's) so when the wipers quit you had to replace the PCM. I am sure you can quote several other examples of such wonderful feats in engineering. As I am sure you are aware that Ford is not the only company to place the EPAS module on the steering rack, which by necessity (most of the time) is down low in the chassis.

 

[90sickfox]

Most alignment racks are set up to re-set the steering angle sensor on most cars/trucks. It is all part of the alignment process now.
Porsche Cabriolets are notorious for having the BCM under the drivers seat, the lowest point inside the car, and Cab's are notorious for leaking water when it rains, so the first thing that gets wet is the BCM. Brilliant!
In my experience Fords have very robust electronics. M/B is probably the worst along with Chrysler. They (Chrysler) even put the windshield wiper relay inside the Power-train control module on minivans, (late 90's early 2000's) so when the wipers quit you had to replace the PCM. I am sure you can quote several other examples of such wonderful feats in engineering. As I am sure you are aware that Ford is not the only company to place the EPAS module on the steering rack, which by necessity (most of the time) is down low in the chassis.

I have a set of kick plates, caster camber gauges, and an ( Autel ) that can reset most. The scanner I have is impractical for the average person. We've had a few 2014- 15 f150s with EPAS fail spontaneously. Those trucks are hell to steer manually. The Hyundai EPAS is a joke...we won't even get into Chevy's.

Audi put their fuse box ( TIPM ) right under the left corner of the windshield. One bad rain storm away from being flooded out. That area easily holds a gollon of water. Smh.

Glad you found info on the CCRM....the security key system is another one of fords nice little tricks. Its awesome if someone wants to steal your car....but if anything goes wrong with it off to the dealer the car goes. Only Ford has access to that neat bit of info.

At least with a Chevy you can bypass it with a stack of resistors. Smh...the old ones anyway.

 

[90sickfox]

Is there info out there to build an external CCRM ? At least that way the relays could be changed easily.

 

[jrichker]

CCRM relays - all CCRM relays are located under the hood

CCRM location
Diagram courtesy of http://ww2.justanswer.com

Click on diagram to enlarge it

CCRM Diagram
Diagram courtesy of http://diagrams.hissind.com/

 

[imp]

Is there info out there to build an external CCRM ? At least that way the relays could be changed easily.

@90sickfox
Exactly what I was hoping to hear!

"Engineers are stupid....every mechanic knows this..." But not this. Ahhh, yes, I know, when I returned to Dana Corp. after getting my Degree, I had, as Facilities Engineer, 18 skilled Tradesmen to supervise, two being Tool & Die Makers, several Electricians, Mechanics, a Pipe-fitter, and a Welder. I expected to be razzed, heard it for years, Engineers are ALL A-holes!

Hot oil at 385` and 1000+ psi was fed to molding presses from a boiler room, in trench about 3 feet deep, along with return piping, cooling water, etc. Cracked pipe below floor level. My Welder, Chip Angus, told me he did not think he could pull off welding it down in there. I asked for assurance against a Union Grievance if I welded it, got it, went ahead, came back covered with grime, oil, crap, hot as hell, but the leak was gone. Those guys never again gave me any trouble, in fact we became good friends, much to my boss's dislike (Plant Manager).

Sorry, off-thread, but you asked for it, and TWICE! Now, the diagram kindly provided of the CCRM guts suggests there's no reason why it couldn't be done conventionally. In fact, I might just do it! imp

 

[90sickfox]

Not all engineers are stupid...my father in- law is a nuclear engineer and pretty dag on smart. Now I know 2 smart ones. Lol

But....I still think automotive engineers are stupid. I know they're doing a balancing act between cost, efficiency, and wear. They still do some dumb stuff...guess they're only human.

 

[imp]

Not all engineers are stupid...my father in- law is a nuclear engineer and pretty dag on smart. Now I know 2 smart ones. Lol

But....I still think automotive engineers are stupid. I know they're doing a balancing act between cost, efficiency, and wear. They still do some dumb stuff...guess they're only human.

@90sickfox
Now, don't back off from a personal opinion you may have. My high school buddy, Charlie (only one who kept in touch all these years), studied hard in college once we got out of HS, while I messed with my cars and parts. He got a Masters in Metallurgical Engineering while I became good at just about all the skilled trades by building sh!t. While I did go back to college, I was 34 when I finally got my degree, divorced, had taken over dealership of an ARCO station 6 months before the Oil Embargo, everything going only so-so. Charlie made oodles of dough over the years; I did not. Yet, to this day, he's absolutely lost when faced with a mechanical or electrical problem of any kind. I doubt he could change a tire. Given the magazine for my 9mm pistol, he could not load it!

Gotta agree, automotive engineers may be composed of lots of "Charlies". I've always believed "book learning" needs to be evenly balanced against practical ability. imp