Coyote 5.0 swap into '96 gt

[Gearbanger 101]

First off, dial back the hostility! It isn't necessary, nor is appreciated!

The fact that installing said wire harness and making it work with your factory gauges makes this install challenging enough. Add to that the speculation that these engines don't always run right when swapped with the FRPP control pack and you might start to question whether or not spending $7500 is worth it. That 7500 also doesn't include headers, intake tubing, and other misc parts necessary to make this swap work.

Secondly as far as difficulty wiring the car goes....you’re just making an assumption. Just the same as you stated that anyone mechanically inclined enough to do a Coyote swap, should also be mechanically inclined enough to build a mean 4.6 short block and install a nice PD blower. It would also stand to reason that they should easily be able to sort out any wiring issues with the Coyote swap, should they arise. The engines themselves run excellent. If there are any issues at all (and that has yet to be confirmed) they’re with Ford’s ECU tuning, not the engine itself. This is something that could easily be remedied by an ECU reflash. Remember when the modulars first hit the scene. Naysayers were calling it the end of the performance era and crying foul about how hard these engine were going to be to tune and work on. We now of course know differently. These Coyote's have only been out in crate form for about a year. The more saturation into the market place and time people spend with them, the more familiar they will get with their operating systems. Patience is a virtue.

As far as header replacement…sure, you’re going to need a set. But if you plan on coming anywhere close to matching the power levels of the Coyote in N/A form with a 4.6L, you’re going to need headers and a whooooollle lot more.

Funny that Mr. PD Nutswinger himself is saying this. A complete KB kit can be purchased for under $6,000 and will provide 400 RWHP and 400 RWTQ. Structurally the KB blowers are solid units meaning if you wreck your engine the SC is fine. You can install a junk yard replacement engine for under $1500 AND if you ever have a desire to upgrade to a forged short block you have room to grow with that PD blower. That's 2 engines AND a supercharger for the same price as the coyote w/ harness.

Don't forget that the coyote's 412 hp is not rated at the wheels, and certainly doesn't have the broad torque curve a KB supercharged 4.6 has.

Regarding driveability, you're always going on and on and on about how PD blower cars have such great street manners. So Brian, are you saying a N/A Coyote offers better drivability than a PD 4.6?

Where have you seen a real SN-95 car with a coyote engine making 30 MPG's... also, are you certain the coyote makes 412 hp while running 87 octane gas? I doubt it...

I completely agree that drivability with a PD blower is excellent…but then I never stated otherwise. As the matter of fact, none of the last paragraph you just typed had anything to do with any claims I made, or didn't make? Contrary to what you’ve been led to believe. Strait up bolting on KB’s intercooled kit will not net you 400rwhp on a 4.6L SOHC. As the matter of fact….I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make 400rwhp with their base intercooled kit without the addition of intake and exhaust mods to go along with it..and in some cases even a pulley swap. Sure, they make the claim, but real world figures put them closer to the 360-380rwhp range. That’s pretty close to what the Coyote makes N/A.

You’re also now comparing the cost of a brand new 5.0L Coyote and wiring harness, to a new KB….and a used engine!?! Why compare the cost of a new engine? As it has been said a million times. Once you start throwing used parts into the fray, your budgetary claims go out the window. Why not compare the cost of a used Coyote? You could pick up one of those complete with harness from the wrecker for less than the price of the KB alone? Keep it an apples to apples to comparison and you’ll see you’re really not saving anything with the built/blown 4.6L. Yes….if you want to start making some serious power, a built/blown 4.6L is going to be more capable than a N/A Coyote. I don’t think that was ever a question. But if you think you’re going to do it on the cheap, you’d better reevaluate your budget. The cost of the built short block and blower alone blows the cost of a Coyote engine and harness out of the water…and at that point you haven’t even started.

For someone who wants to make south of 450hp, retain perfect street matters, excellent drivability, fuel economy and emissions, the Coyote swap is an excellent choice. If you want power levels beyond that and don’t mind shelling out the dough, or sacrificing any of the aforementioned Coyote attributes, then by all means…build up a 4.6L OHC or 5.0L OHV and have at it. But understand…it’s not going to be any less difficult or any more cost effective. After all…KB makes a pretty nice blower for the Coyote as well. And these engines will handle North of 550hp without forging the bottom end. The same can’t be said for either the 4.6L OHC or 5.0L OHV, can it.

As far as mileage is concerned. Spend a little time over in the S197 section and you’ll see there are plenty of guys knocking down high-20’s with their Coyote’s. Swap that same engine into an SN95/Fox Mustang that’s 300-500lbs lighter by comparison and near 30mpg isn’t that hard to fathom. In any case….even babied, a blown 4.6L won’t come anywhere close to that. The 4.6L Modular’s just don’t match the Coyote’s volumetric efficiency levels.

And I’m sorry…I stand corrected. The Coyote makes about 10hp less on 87-octane. A measly 402hp….pathetic!

But tell me….would you even attempt to run a blown Mustang on 87-octane?

Considering that you'd have to remove that engine and send it back to Ford with a warranty that is only 12 months... BFD... I doubt there are many properly installed KB 4.6's that have ruined motors within 12 months.

I'll take pulling my engine out and sending it back to Ford on their dime over a busted engine I'm responsible for that's gotta come out to be fixed anyway.

And there are plennnnty of people who have broken their 4.6L's within the first 12-months trying to push them to Coyote power levels. I've seen engines break at 6psi, making 100hp less than a Coyote. It does happen.

 

[N8Dogg98]

As far as header replacement…sure, you’re going to need a set. But if you plan on coming anywhere close to matching the power levels of the Coyote in N/A form with a 4.6L, you’re going to need headers and a whooooollle lot more.

I never claimed that a N/A 4.6 would net the same power as a Coyote for obvious reasons.

I completely agree that drivability with a PD blower is excellent…but then I never stated otherwise. As the matter of fact, none of the last paragraph you just typed had anything to do with any claims I made, or didn't make? Contrary to what you’ve been led to believe. Strait up bolting on KB’s intercooled kit will not net you 400rwhp on a 4.6L SOHC. As the matter of fact….I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make 400rwhp with their base intercooled kit without the addition of intake and exhaust mods to go along with it..and in some cases even a pulley swap. Sure, they make the claim, but real world figures put them closer to the 360-380rwhp range. That’s pretty close to what the Coyote makes N/A.

SRTHandz doesn't have headers, runs a KB intercooled kit on a PI engine and makes 407 RWHP. Now he may have a catted midpipe and a bassani cat back, but 407 RWHP > 412FWHP AND I can almost guarantee his car makes more torque from 1500-5500RPM than a coyote would.

You’re also now comparing the cost of a brand new 5.0L Coyote and wiring harness, to a new KB….and a used engine!?! Why compare the cost of a new engine?

I don't need to compare the cost to an engine. The SN-95 already comes with an engine the only point in bringing it up was that you could replace the SN-95 engine with a JY unit and still spend less and have invested less time than doing a coyote swap.

Yes….if you want to start making some serious power, a built/blown 4.6L is going to be more capable than a N/A Coyote.

... and that is one of the points I was making from the start.

On the other hand if you desire Coyote power and drivability, a PD blower on a stock engine is the least expensive and easiest way to get there.

For someone who wants to make south of 450hp, retain perfect street matters, excellent drivability, fuel economy and emissions, the Coyote swap is an excellent choice.

A KB with a conservative tune on a stock PI engine will make more RWHP and torque than a swapped Coyote, and it would be less expensive and be less of a burden to install. A KB can be installed in a weekend with simple hand tools, and I doubt someone with experience and access to a lift and good tools could successfully complete a Coyote swap in an SN-95 car and have it running in one weekend.

And I’m sorry…I stand corrected. The Coyote makes about 10hp less on 87-octane. A measly 402hp….pathetic!

Exactly 402hp*85% drive loss = ~340RWHP. Doesn't take much for a KB'd 4.6m 2V to eclipse 340RWHP... hell you could almost do it with the cheap 6 PSI non-intercooled kit.

But tell me….would you even attempt to run a blown Mustang on 87-octane?

No, but by not spending $7500 for an engine and a FRPP harness that would leave plenty of money for premium fuel

I'll take pulling my engine out and sending it back to Ford on their dime over a busted engine I'm responsible for that's gotta come out to be fixed anyway.

And there are plennnnty of people who have broken their 4.6L's within the first 12-months trying to push them to Coyote power levels. I've seen engines break at 6psi, making 100hp less than a Coyote. It does happen.

No question it happens, but as I said before if a PD KB car is set up with a good conservative tune, it really wouldn't be at all unlikely for that car to run for years without problems, AND it would make more power than the Coyote. You should know that being that you drove a PD Cougar. IIRC you never had problems with it AND you had the stock engine, no? Remind me what kind of RWHP numbers that car made?

EDIT: oh nevermind I see it in your sig... 410hp and it looks like you had a built short block, was that FWHP or RWHP

Now if I could get a salvage coyote engine w/ a harness and all necessary components to successfully install it for under 4K... please sign me up. I just don't see that happening any time soon. In fact I did a quick search and the 3.7 six is selling for $2500 just for the engine.. couldn't find any Coyote's for sale except e-bay and the only salvage one I saw was listed at over $9,000 with the transmission

 

[Gearbanger 101]

SRTHandz doesn't have headers, runs a KB intercooled kit on a PI engine and makes 407 RWHP. Now he may have a catted midpipe and a bassani cat back, but 407 RWHP > 412FWHP AND I can almost guarantee his car makes more torque from 1500-5500RPM than a coyote would.

Who said anything about a supercharged 4.6L needing headers to make 400rwhp? What I said was....

As the matter of fact….I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make 400rwhp with their base intercooled kit without the addition of intake and exhaust mods to go along with it.

And considering along with the exhaust system mods you stated he had above, you neglected to mention the addition of the Kenne Bell Big tube kit, 90mm MAF and 75mm throttle body….along with a custom dyno tune (which incidentally tacks on another about another $1,000 or so to the price of the base kit).

So basically what I said in my previous post was bang on the money!

I don't need to compare the cost to an engine. The SN-95 already comes with an engine the only point in bringing it up was that you could replace the SN-95 engine with a JY unit and still spend less and have invested less time than doing a coyote swap.

Absolutely...and as long as you’re willing to overlook the fact that you’re still comparing a used engine to a new one, you're golden. Now you’ve met, or surpassed the Coyote power figures and have only had to make slight sacrifices to fuel economy, emissions and the loss of the ability to run regular fuel. So there is a trade off. If you’re willing to live with it, then who am I to argue. But you can’t deny that sacrifices are being made in the name of power…even if it is only a marginal jump.

And really....you're splitting hairs regarding a KB install and a Coyote engine swap. Both are going to take you the better part of a weekend and that’s only if you’ve got all the parts laid out in front of you and don’t run into any issues. This holds true for BOTH swaps! And again, that's ONLY if you're doing a strait KB install to your existing engine. If you're replacing your current engine with a JY unit on top of the blower install, you're going to end with a lot more hours into your 4.6L than you will with the Coyote. Remember...the basic components (mounts, trans) are the same between these two engines...and the Coyote is actually a more dimensionally compact package to work with which I can only assume would make the basic hardware install that much easier?

... and that is one of the points I was making from the start.

Yes...but you seem to "gloss" over the facts that big power, isn't going to come with just a simple KB swap. That built short block, head/intake upgrades, ignition/fuel, inake and exhaust system upgrade require to take full potential of something that would make serious power is going to shatter your initial dollar figure all to hell. Having that "room to grow" as you put it, also requires that you allow your budget significant room for growth as well.

A KB with a conservative tune on a stock PI engine will make more RWHP and torque than a swapped Coyote, and it would be less expensive and be less of a burden to install. A KB can be installed in a weekend with simple hand tools, and I doubt someone with experience and access to a lift and good tools could successfully complete a Coyote swap in an SN-95 car and have it running in one weekend.

Coyote's regularily dyno at about 360-365rwhp and some have dyno'd higher still. That's pretty much right on par with a standard KB kit with their supplied tune. Are people seeing more than that out of KB's...sure, but you've got to take into consideration what other pre existing bolt ons and upgrades they might have had, that contributed to their inflated power figures. Remember...intake and exhaust upgrade contribute tremendously to a forced induction engine. And while these upgrades are a welcome addition, they're not free and should be rolled into the cost of the project if you're going to use the power figures made as a result of their presence.

As for the install time and effort....you seem to speculate a lot for a guy who's actually never peformed the swap?

.Exactly 402hp*85% drive loss = ~340RWHP. Doesn't take much for a KB'd 4.6m 2V to eclipse 340RWHP... hell you could almost do it with the cheap 6 PSI non-intercooled kit.

See above regarding their power figures.

No question it happens, but as I said before if a PD KB car is set up with a good conservative tune, it really wouldn't be at all unlikely for that car to run for years without problems, AND it would make more power than the Coyote. You should know that being that you drove a PD Cougar. IIRC you never had problems with it AND you had the stock engine, no? Remind me what kind of RWHP numbers that car made?

EDIT: oh nevermind I see it in your sig... 410hp and it looks like you had a built short block, was that FWHP or RWHP

Again, "good conservative tunes" don’t make the big power numbers you think they do. All it takes is one tank of bad gas and an overzealous right foot on the wrong day to end your ride in a hurry. Even forged short blocks aren’t immune.

As far as my car was concerned…it was 410fwhp/465fwtq with a conservative tune. My M90S was spun within an inch of its life and it was all sucking through a very power robbing drivetrain. That being said…I had over 13K wrapped up under the hood of that car. I could have easily performed a Coyote swap for that, and had money left over had they been around at the time…and still would have been able to run regular fuel and gotten more than 21mpg.

Now…granted…I built that engine to handle a lot more power than it was making, but the blower I was supposed to purchase was no longer available by the time I got around to doing it. I probably could have very well gotten away with a JY PI long block….but I still wouldn’t have come in a whole lot cheaper after all was said and done and would have always wondered “is today the day it’s going to let go?” Not a nice feeling when you’re 14-hours from home, running your car hard down a drag strip all weekend. The piece of mind that forged short block gave me was worth the extra money spent…and spend it I did!

 

[N8Dogg98]

And considering along with the exhaust system mods you stated he had above, you neglected to mention the addition of the Kenne Bell Big tube kit, 90mm MAF and 75mm throttle body….along with a custom dyno tune (which incidentally tacks on another about another $1,000 or so to the price of the base kit).

Dude still spent $6,000 for everything, even if you included exhaust go ahead and round it up to $7,000... which is $500 less than the Coyote and harness AND when you would add in the cost of exhaust for the coyote swap, intake, and all other necessary parts there is probably an minimum of $1,000 additional dollars to make it work.

And really....you're splitting hairs regarding a KB install and a Coyote engine swap. Both are going to take you the better part of a weekend and that’s only if you’ve got all the parts laid out in front of you and don’t run into any issues.

That's the beauty of a KB kit though. They send you EVERYTHING you need to make it work. I don't think you can go out and buy a "Coyote-SN95 Swap Kit" that includes everything necessary for install (engine, harness, exhaust, intake, hardware, etc...). Now I've never done an engine swap, but I have installed cams twice on a 2V 4.6 and I've swapped the lower NPI manifold for a PI unit. I can tell you that it took me one afternoon to do the manifold swap. I realize the KB is more involved than a simple intake swap, but do you really think a KB install is comparable to swapping an engine... and not just any engine but an engine that didn't come with the car to begin with? Remember it's not just a matter of bolting it up, you also have to wire the harness and make it work with the existing gauges in the car.

Yes...but you seem to "gloss" over the facts that big power, isn't going to come with just a simple KB swap. That built short block, head/intake upgrades, ignition/fuel, inake and exhaust system upgrade require to take full potential of something that would make serious power is going to shatter your initial dollar figure all to hell. Having that "room to grow" as you put it, also requires that you allow your budget significant room for growth as well.

No question, but if the initial goal is a driveable <450 hp car the KB intercooled kit makes perfect sense. The point I was making is that if/when a desire exists for more power a stout short block can be installed and a smaller pulley can be swapped on the KB. If that KB isn't big enough, those things sell used for about half the cost to buy one so there's always the option of selling and upgrading to a larger unit.

Coyote's regularily dyno at about 360-365rwhp and some have dyno'd higher still. That's pretty much right on par with a standard KB kit with their supplied tune.

A standard KB kit also costs much less than $6,000... for $6,000 you get the nice intercooled KB kit with all the extra goodies.

Are people seeing more than that out of KB's...sure, but you've got to take into consideration what other pre existing bolt ons and upgrades they might have had, that contributed to their inflated power figures. Remember...intake and exhaust upgrade contribute tremendously to a forced induction engine. And while these upgrades are a welcome addition, they're not free and should be rolled into the cost of the project if you're going to use the power figures made as a result of their presence.

With a Coyote swap you also need to factor in the cost of intake and exhaust upgrades. The engine doesn't come with either and to my knowledge you can't use the stock SN95 exhaust without having a negative impact on the Coyote output (not sure if it will even bolt up). You also may need to have a custom midpipe created which would add considerable cost.

As for the install time and effort....you seem to speculate a lot for a guy who's actually never peformed the swap?

As I said above I did a NPI - PI intake swap in an afternoon, and I've swapped cams twice, and once I replaced all of the timing components. The 2nd time I did cams when I also replaced all of my timing components I was able to do it in under a day. I may not have installed a KB kit, but I very much doubt it would take me more than 2 weekend days, while swapping a stock engine for a stock engine would probably take me 2 full weekends working 12 hours each day... and that's just a stock engine. Complicate it further with a FRPP control pack, custom exhaust, and intake and my car would be probably be down for a couple months

Now…granted…I built that engine to handle a lot more power than it was making, but the blower I was supposed to purchase was no longer available by the time I got around to doing it. I probably could have very well gotten away with a JY PI long block….but I still wouldn’t have come in a whole lot cheaper after all was said and done and would have always wondered “is today the day it’s going to let go?” Not a nice feeling when you’re 14-hours from home, running your car hard down a drag strip all weekend. The piece of mind that forged short block gave me was worth the extra money spent…and spend it I did!

I can totally understand that. For me I'd rather build a nice driveable 300 RWHP N/A 4.6 due to that exact reason you pointed out. Would hate to be stranded somewhere.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Dang it guys, can't you see the obvious solution in front of your eyes!?!?!?

Coyote 5.0 swap AND a Kenne Bell.



rubhands

 

[Steve491]

The motor would be worth more than the car...?

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[mrbuhag]

The way I see it is - The best thing about the new Stang is that amazing 412hp, almost 30mpg engineering marvel of a bullet they put between the fenders. The rest of the car is financially out-of- reach for me, as awesome as it is. Still, I am totally attached to my old faithful, bulletproof, never gave me any trouble, ragged rag top '96 gt. I would guess that my old car is lighter and obviously a bit smaller than the new Mustang, so maybe sticking that killer powerplant into it would make for an even faster little beast than the new car. Sometimes a crazy vision of what YOUR car can become gets in your head, and it just stays there until accomplished. I'm pleasantly surprised that Ford is making these engines available in a crate. They are encouraging this sort of crazy thinking.