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Crackling Sound Under Hard Acceleration

  • Thread starter Thread starter stockfox91
  • Start date Start date Jun 13, 2011

stockfox91

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Jun 13, 2011
#1
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #1
Hey guys,

I am getting an odd crackling sound under hard acceleration above 3k rpm. It only occurs under load and starts at around 3/4 throttle. It never occurs during low rpm acceleration or during free revs.

The sound appears to be coming from the engine/pulley drive system but it is difficult to tell. I initially thought it was my clutch fan, but it persisted after replacing it with an electric fan. I then thought it was my smog pump, so I yanked out my smog pump and I still have the problem. It does not sound like lifter tick or valvetrain rattle. It almost sounds like something is rattling or slapping on a piece of metal and the noise does not change once it starts (doesn't vary with rpm).

Any clue as to what it could be?


Mods:
BBK 70mm Throttle Body
C&L 76mm MAF
Electric Fan
TransGo Stage 2 AOD w/2000rpm Converter
2.73 Gears
Full exhaust w/BBK Shorty Headers
MSD Ignition
Taylor Wires
200Amp 3G Alternator
 

f8tlfiveo

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.
Aug 8, 2007
1,585
102
64
Lancaster, PA
Jun 13, 2011
#2
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #2
Prob pinging.. Check timing and put 93 in the tank..
 

jrichker

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Jun 13, 2011
#3
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #3
Pinging or spark knock is not the same as detonation.

Pinging is preignition of the fuel air charge by some source of ignition other than the spark plug. The source of the ignition can be a hot spot in the combustion chamber such as carbon, a spark plug insulator, side electrode, or a sharp edge on a valve. It occurs before the spark plug can fire and while the piston is still on its upward movement towards TDC. That is the cause of the characteristic ping or ringing sound, much like shaking a coffee can full of BB’s.

Detonation is the uncontrolled explosion of the fuel air charge after the spark plug fires and starts to burn. In a properly running engine, the spark plug ignites the fuel air charge and it burns slowly and evenly across the combustion chamber, much like a fire as it burns its way across a grassy field. When detonation occurs, the ignited fuel air charge causes an increase in the combustion chamber pressure and temperature. The remaining fuel air charge that has not been burned self–ignites explosively causing tremendous heat and pressure. The source of secondary ignition can be the same as preignition, or can be simply due to the heat and pressure. Detonation is what damages engine parts because of the excessive heat and pressure.

Pinging can lead to detonation, and the results are the same: engine damage because of the excessive heat and pressure
__________________
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
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Jun 13, 2011
#4
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #4
Jricker, check your facts on this one. Pinging is a high pitched frequency caused by detonation, not preignition. Most often, preignition happens closer to BDC and is not heard at all.

Preignition is a far more destructive force than detonation, and in fact many engines are actually designed to run with light levels of detonation.

From this article:
KEY DEFINITIONS
Detonation: Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition: Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

DETONATION
Unburned end gas, under increasing pressure and heat (from the normal progressive burning process and hot combustion chamber metals) spontaneously combusts, ignited solely by the intense heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure.

Detonation causes a very high, very sharp pressure spike in the combustion chamber but it is of a very short duration. If you look at a pressure trace of the combustion chamber process, you would see the normal burn as a normal pressure rise, then all of a sudden you would see a very sharp spike when the detonation occurred. That spike always occurs after the spark plug fires. The sharp spike in pressure creates a force in the combustion chamber. It causes the structure of the engine to ring, or resonate, much as if it were hit by a hammer. Resonance, which is characteristic of combustion detonation, occurs at about 6400 Hertz. So the pinging you hear is actually the structure of the engine reacting to the pressure spikes. This noise of detonation is commonly called spark knock. This noise changes only slightly between iron and aluminum. This noise or vibration is what a knock sensor picks up. The knock sensors are tuned to 6400 hertz and they will pick up that spark knock. Incidentally, the knocking or pinging sound is not the result of "two flame fronts meeting" as is often stated. Although this clash does generate a spike the noise you sense comes from the vibration of the engine structure reacting to the pressure spike.
Click to expand...

Click on the link to the article for far more detailed discussion about the damage that can be caused and what the differences between preignition and detonation will look like.

Chris
 

jrichker

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#5
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #5
Copied from Powerplants for Aerospace Vehicles, Northrup Institute of Technology,Third edition Copyright 1965

The preignition knock
A knock similar to the one just described may occur in an aircraft engine when the compressed charge is, in some way, ignited before the spark jumps the gap between the spark-plug electrodes, or points. This is called a preignition knock. Of fuel knocks, this one is probably the most destructive. If the condition which causes it is not immediately corrected, backfire pressure in the induction system may damage the supercharger and the untimed combustion, may melt pistons and crack cylinder heads through excessive overheating.

Preignition, also called surface ignition because it is caused by surface conditions within the combustion chamber, is the ignition of the compressed charge before the action of the spark plug. It may be caused by valves which have been ground, or lapped, to feather edges during an overhaul and which consequently be¬come red hot in operation owing to their thinness, by excessive carbon in cylinder heads, and by spark plugs thickly coated with carbon. The normal heat of the engine may cause the carbon formation in the combustion chambers, the thin valves, or the faulty spark plugs to glow incandescently, thus firing the charge prior to regular spark-plug action.

Aside from the fact that preignition and the use of unsuitable fuel can do great damage to the aircraft engine, the possibility of its causing engine failure while in fight should be of sufficient importance to guarantee every measure being taken to correct this faulty condition once its existence is known.

Detonation
The word detonation is generally used by automotive and aircraft engine specialists to describe severe fuel knock. Actually, in plain English, detonation means an explosion, but when the word is used by internal combustion-engine men, it is not employed in its normal, everyday sense. Fuel knock is merely the result of abnormal burning or uncontrolled combustion.

The availability of improved metal alloys has made it possible to construct engines of high power output, with higher compression ratios and higher manifold pressures than before. However, the improvement of engines has been limited by the fact that detonation will occur when any vaporized fuel in an engine cylinder is compressed to a critical pressure which is characteristic of that particular fuel.

Detonation means that, after the fuel is ignited, the fuel/air mixture bums at a normal rate until a substantial portion of the mixture is consumed and then the remainder burns with explosive rapidity. There is an unusual rise in pressure, accompanied by a distinct metallic knock. The gases of combustion, the engine valves, and various parts of the engine are heated to excessive temperatures. Overheating of the engine causes expansion of the fuel/air mixture; less fuel is burned; hence the engine power output is decreased. A large part of the power loss resulting from detonation is due to the fact that the piston cannot accelerate rapidly enough to convert the abnormally high transient pressures into useful power. Cylinder walls and other metal parts vibrate and chatter owing to the sudden pressure increase of "explosion." Detonation may cause the engine to stop; may cause cracked pistons, burned valves, and other mechanical damage in the engine; and may also lead to preignition.

Preignition always occurs before the normal period of ignition. Detonation, on the other hand, occurs after the fuel has been ignited. Since preignition occurs when metal parts within the combustion chamber are overheated from any cause, thus igniting the fuel/air mixture before the ignition spark jumps the gap, it is apparent that the excessive temperatures which exist in a condition of detonation can lead to preignition, as mentioned above.

Preignition advances the ignition period abnormally and further reduces the engine efficiency. If the ignition switch of an overheated engine is opened, the engine may continue to run for several minutes because of this unintentional ignition of the fuel.

Causes of detonation
Some of the various factors which contribute to cause detonation are the cylinder temperature, the amount of the induced charge, the temperature of the fuel/air mixture, the mixture ratio of gasoline and air, the intake manifold pressure, the positions of the spark plugs, and the shape of the combustion chamber. All these factors pertain to the design or adjustment of the carburetor, the supercharger, or the engine itself. In addition to these factors, one of the most important factors contributing to detonation is the antiknock or octane value of the fuel. Since this topic pertains directly to the subject of this chapter, it is discussed at this point.
Click to expand...

This is where I got my definitions, and the description I posted is a very much shortened version of what is contained in the above text. The primary point that we disagree on is does detonation or preignition cause the pinging noise. My view is that detonation causes a sharp crack or thud sound, with preignition makes the rattling, coffee can full of BB's sound.
 

stockfox91

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Jun 13, 2011
#6
  • Jun 13, 2011
  • #6
I also forgot to add I have always run 92/93 octane fuel, engine internals are bone stock, and it has an ADS Superchip.

It is not pinging at all. Predetonation can be very harmful correct? This has been doing this for the 2.5 years I've owned it. The sound hasn't changed at all.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
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Vass, NC
Jun 14, 2011
#7
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #7
Maybe it's change in your ashtray...or any other similar metal on metal rattling. It's really hard to say what the sound is without actually being there. And there is no such thing as predetonation. There is detonation and preignition, which as discussed above are two different issues.

Jricker, I see the term "knock" referenced, but this does not seem to be referring to the audible noise made, just the broader generality that encompasses both preignition and detonation. While I skimmed it pretty quickly, I did not even see a single reference to sound in the article you quoted. Additionally, I can assure you from my own experience that detonation is the bb's in a coffee can sound. I've had a motor that detonated. If you ever check out those engine masters challenge motors, something thats pretty cool about them is that detonation is very audible, the builders, John Kaase for example, even talk about that a bit. Apparently, the most power producing tunes include mild detonation. You can probably find vids of their dyno runs on you tube to listen to.

Chris
 

stockfox91

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Jun 14, 2011
#8
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #8
I will get a video of it when the sun comes out and post it.
 

stockfox91

New Member
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Jun 14, 2011
#9
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGa5FI0kSlI

Here is the vid... You can hear it well from 1:50 - 2:33 or so.
 
9

90stang5speed

Member
Jan 19, 2009
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Jun 14, 2011
#10
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #10
the link didnt work when i clicked it.
 

stockfox91

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Jan 15, 2011
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Jun 14, 2011
#11
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #11
90stang5speed said:
the link didnt work when i clicked it.
Click to expand...

Fixed
 

BlackGT89

Member
Dec 16, 2002
774
8
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Huntsville, AL
Jun 14, 2011
#12
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #12
You had me worried on some of those turns ! I hear a little static probably through the camera, but the noise itself seems very faint. How many miles are on the engine ? Do you have any blow-by to speak of ? How is your oil pressure ?
 

stockfox91

New Member
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Jun 14, 2011
#13
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #13
BlackGT89 said:
You had me worried on some of those turns ! I hear a little static probably through the camera, but the noise itself seems very faint. How many miles are on the engine ? Do you have any blow-by to speak of ? How is your oil pressure ?
Click to expand...

Haha yeah I love how she handles

Yeah the camera mount was rattling a bit unfortunately. If you listen very closely between 1:50 and 2:33 you will notice a crackling sound that isn't the window mount. It seems to get louder as the engine gets hotter.

It has 134k miles on it and runs really good. No blow by that I know of, no lifter or valvetrain tick, and oil pressure is good. The car is in really good shape all around, but the sound really bugs me.

Could it possibly be the harmonic dampener or maybe even the timing chain? I'm honestly at wits end right now.
 

BlackGT89

Member
Dec 16, 2002
774
8
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Huntsville, AL
Jun 14, 2011
#14
  • Jun 14, 2011
  • #14
If it was the harmonic balancer one of the first symptoms I think you would notice would be a bad vibration. I thought about the timing chain but I've not heard a lot of complaints about timing chain rattle on these cars. Besides I think that would be a more tinny sound. Could be something mechanical but it doesn't sound urgent. If you have a local mechanic you trust maybe they could diagnose it and maybe run a compression test to see if something is not right.
 

stockfox91

New Member
Jan 15, 2011
19
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Jul 25, 2011
#15
  • Jul 25, 2011
  • #15
Discovered this to be the AC system. Re-oiled and re-charged it this past weekend and the problem went away. I'm thinking the compressor was low on oil.. I was pumped when I hit 130 under load with zero unpleasant sounds from the motor.
 

BlackGT89

Member
Dec 16, 2002
774
8
18
Huntsville, AL
Jul 25, 2011
#16
  • Jul 25, 2011
  • #16
Thanks for reporting back. I wish more Stangnetters would do that !
 

stockfox91

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Jan 15, 2011
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East County
Jul 25, 2011
#17
  • Jul 25, 2011
  • #17
BlackGT89 said:
Thanks for reporting back. I wish more Stangnetters would do that !
Click to expand...

I don't get on much, I am mostly on the local NW forums but I figured you guys are always helpful and I wish someone had posted this up for me so I didn't have to spend the past 2.5 years staying below 3k rpm to avoid this nasty sound.
 
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