Evo Performance said:My 2005 Mustang GT Automatic ran a 13.6 completely BONE stock (400 Miles on the odometer!) With the addition of a JLT Intake, an Evolution Performance Custom Tuned XCal2, 4:30 Gears, Panhard Bar/Brace, and a 3rd Link (Upper Control Arm), I was able to hit 12.82 @108 on stock tires!
I guess the Tunable Induction kit with an "Amateur" Custom SCT tune isn't that great......... 13.4's??? I give it a
ramjetlx said:Oops!! Forgot to say I ran a 13.7 at 101 bone stock leaving it in DRIVE. But if you ever been on the track here in Hawaii, everyone will agree it is a VERY JUNK track!!! So its pretty damn good given the track we are given to run on. I have said before I can go even to 13.2 based on my mph of 102.5, but I am traction limited. I never said I was a professional driver either, but to go from a 13.7 to the low 13's is pretty damn good for the price I paid for my CAI/Tune combo. And I didnt know SCT was full of amatuer tuners. Guess you must be a qualified professional tuner with a reputable company.....
Kyle F said:
Hey your taking out the largest factor... the driver.
Running a manual also affets this more. I guess it really depends on how much that intake worked for him based off how much of an improvement he made over his previous runs
The Dyno is not good for selling, under proper testing conditions it takes driver erro out of the equation and can give you quantifiable measurements to the changes.
First of all Ramjetlx, you completly misunderstood my reply concerning J DeMolet's quote, and took everything way out of context.. in fact my reply to his quote had absolutely nothing to do with what your car's best time numbers were, nor did I ever mention that to begin with..what I did question about his CAI system was if his materials and labor costs are so far superior and more expensive than a metal system, as he claims.. then his CAI kit should retail at a higher price, instead of being almost $150.00 less than a C&L which retails for $369.00.. the bottom line here is.. I'm not looking to put down anybody's product, so if you were able to bust out in 13.4's then good for you, However..whenever somebody makes a claim that I don't feel makes any sense, nor adds up...then yes, I'm going to question it. and not to sound like a wiseass or anything, but what Mr. DeMolet also needs to realize here is this is a technical forum, not a sales forum, and should therefore post any future quotes and opinions he may have, in a techincal manner..Thank Youramjetlx said:I totally support the Tunable Induction kit with an SCT tune. For the money its well worth every penny. Check out my sig for my best time with just this kit!!! And I know Im having traction issues and can go lower. Last week I saw a guy running a JLTII with SCT tune on his stock 05. His best was a 13.8. 60 foot was a 2.0 with average reaction times in the high .500's. Now that would really piss me off to spend alot of money and run only a 13.8 with a manual, when Im using the Tuneable Induction kit and busting out 13.4's in an automatic, with the potential to go even lower. We can all brag about dyno numbers and how the JLTII and C&L are the best out of everyone, but the most important thing is how it does in the real world. I believe dyno's are effective at selling, but my vote for the best bang for the buck CAI goes to this Tuneable Induction kit. I have real world expirance to back it up and do not ever regret getting it.
C&L - $350, AEM - $289, Tunable Induction - $225. So now you're accusing your competitors of price gouging the consumer?J DeMolet said:RED 05 bulitgt:
I'll try to answer your question technically of what I meant:
I had an 03 Cobra underhood system that utilized a custom molded carbon fiber shield.
Once my initial cost of the mold expenditure was done each of the pieces were much cheaper than laying them up by hand and there was no labor cost, only the per piece price.
I can't build the carbon fiber TB pipe in this manner for the 05's. You have to do them by hand which means a higher labor cost than complete ready to ship molded pieces.
But if you have one person who can build say 10 of these in one day this translates into a reasonable cost per system piece price.
Your labor is higher than a premolded piece.
Carbon fiber and polycarbonate sheets aren't cheap but sourcing these in multiple sheet pressings enables a cost per system price that's reasonable.
You can offer a nice quality system that's reasonably priced. Individually the cost of my TB pipe is higher both in materials and labor than if I used a polished aluminum Tb pipe I could simply add couplers to and drop in the box ready to ship but making my TB pipe and shields in quantity maintains a decent cost per system profit margin and enables offering top quality materials.
When you see a companys' retail price come down by $ 100. over what it was intially they obviously have a good margin of profit to work with.
We do not want to know what you 'feel'. Simply provide us with test data which backs up the claim on your website: "Performance gains will quickly be sacrificed with metal components in the induction system."J DeMolet said:I know this is argued to death, but I feel that the plastics are a superior material to use in a product that has such a large correlation to heat being an insulator.
Which ones? Remember, we're comparing your system with those made from aluminum.J DeMolet said:There are systems lower cost than mine.
But I do agree with the proven fact that plastics are better insulators than metals. Just read my 1st post in this string.J DeMolet said:you'll never agree with the plastic vs. metal standpoint of the plastics having an 'edge' on heat conduction..
Thanks for you're reply, personally I have nothing against your system.. However, my reply to you're original quote in my opinion, was not only taken as a non technical statement, but I also took it as a marketing statement and as a direct attack on the other systems as well, and let's face it.. you're original quote, didn't provide any type of technical info. other than a general statement, to rely on.. And if you had included or provided more detail in you're original quote.. This misunderstaning would have never taken place, to begin with.. Therefore I hope this provides a better understanding as to why I took you're original quote, in such a defensive manner.. I also agree with Ski's comments and would also like to see actual test data, which backs up the claim on your website: "Performance gains will quickly be sacrificed with metal components in the induction system."... Finally there's one last issue, concerning you're system, that I need to address.. Have you had any issues or compliants with you're plastic MAF de-forming ?? from what my understanding is.. I've heard that one of you're competitors was having issues with air filters falling off his plastic MAF housing, because the housing was not able to withstand engine bay heat and in addtion, not being able to withstand the weight and pressure of the filter, therefore causing the plastic housing to de-form.. and as a result, had to switch over from a plastic MAF housing, to a billet and metal type housing, in order to correct this problem, and I would like to know, if any of you're customers have also experienced this issue, and if so..what steps and actions do you plan to provide for your customers, who may also experience similar problems with you're system ?? Anyway, you're expert advice and thoughts would really be appreciated, concerning this issue.. and once again, i would like to say.. thanks for you're reply...J DeMolet said:RED 05 bulitgt:
I'll try to answer your question technically of what I meant:
I had an 03 Cobra underhood system that utilized a custom molded carbon fiber shield.
Once my initial cost of the mold expenditure was done each of the pieces were much cheaper than laying them up by hand and there was no labor cost, only the per piece price.
I can't build the carbon fiber TB pipe in this manner for the 05's. You have to do them by hand which means a higher labor cost than complete ready to ship molded pieces.
But if you have one person who can build say 10 of these in one day this translates into a reasonable cost per system piece price.
Your labor is higher than a premolded piece.
Carbon fiber and polycarbonate sheets aren't cheap but sourcing these in multiple sheet pressings enables a cost per system price that's reasonable.
You can offer a nice quality system that's reasonably priced. Individually the cost of my TB pipe is higher both in materials and labor than if I used a polished aluminum Tb pipe I could simply add couplers to and drop in the box ready to ship but making my TB pipe and shields in quantity maintains a decent cost per system profit margin and enables offering top quality materials.
When you see a companys' retail price come down by $ 100. over what it was intially they obviously have a good margin of profit to work with.
I know this is argued to death, but I feel that the plastics are a superior material to use in a product that has such a large correlation to heat being an insulator.
red05bullitgt said:First of all Ramjetlx, you completly misunderstood my reply concerning J DeMolet's quote, and took everything way out of context.. in fact my reply to his quote had absolutely nothing to do with what your car's best time numbers were, nor did I ever mention that to begin with..what I did question about his CAI system was if his materials and labor costs are so far superior and more expensive than a metal system, as he claims.. then his CAI kit should retail at a higher price, instead of being almost $150.00 less than a C&L which retails for $369.00.. the bottom line here is.. I'm not looking to put down anybody's product, so if you were able to bust out in 13.4's then good for you, However..whenever somebody makes a claim that I don't feel makes any sense, nor adds up...then yes, I'm going to question it. and not to sound like a wiseass or anything, but what Mr. DeMolet also needs to realize here is this is a technical forum, not a sales forum, and should therefore post any future quotes and opinions he may have, in a techincal manner..Thank You
Wait just a minute hereramjetlx said:My sincerest apologies to you sir for my misunderstanding. I am only a weekend warrior at the drags but I am also a big customer of mustang parts, both for my 5.0 and current 06 GT. I just wanted to say customers are always looking for the best vaule for the dollar, that is why the mustang is a great seller. As a business owner myself, I understand this very well. I just wanted to say that Demolet's system is well worth the money I spent and the gains I received. I do not wish to be part of any technical converations about plastic vs metal, since I am no expert on this, but I do understand the aspects of business. So, I will bow out and hope I didnt offend anyone with my opinions.
That's the exact reason why I chose the C&L aluminum intake.red05bullitgt said:I was originally going to choose the Tunable Induction kit, until I found out that JLT re-designed his intake tube, from a plastic MAF housing to a billet style, because there were problems with air filters falling off, thanks to the so-called superior (plastic) housing that became deformed, due to engine bay heat.
Good point, but who are they, and how much do they spend on ads?J DeMolet said:If a given company spends $5000. a month in MM & FF the retail prices of the system have this cost figured in.
The article proves my point that heat soak does not cause a metal intake to reduce engine performance to a greater degree than a plastic intake.J DeMolet said:Murillo noted, if you read the article on my site, that there was NO DIFFERENCE IN THE TUNE, with engine heat soak.
The word feel , or any word with the same meaning, does not appear anywhere in your website's aggressive claim - "Performance gains will quickly be sacrificed with metal components in the induction system."J DeMolet said:all manufacturers will point out what they feel the different advantages are.
Heat definitely will.J DeMolet said:A lot of variables with heat, weight, etc. won't show any differences on the dyno
J DeMolet said:It's no problem addressing questions:
I can only speak of my own expieriences with regarding the plastic meter longevity question.
I did not have any claims with the Pro-M plastic bullett meters I used to carry.
The factory meters are plastic and if their warranty claims were such that it was costing them more with problems due to warpage than switching to another material they probably would have.
The SCT big mouth meters are plastic and I'm unaware of issues with them regarding the plastic construction.
Plastic stays cool with airflow, even 'at idle' airflow and I haven't had any problems with my plastic meters. My CNC progam allows a nice CORRECT NECK LENGTH for filter attachment just as the other companies meters.
If you go back and read the shootout article closely you'll find a notation regarding 'neck length' . This will make a difference in filter retention.
I have had NO warpage problems with the TB pipes or meters in the 05/06 systems. MD retained/installed their system in July and have related no problems, or with their customers.
When I began carrying the metal meters it was no surprise that many inquiries wanted to know if they could get them in plastic. I've had the plastic and metal in my Mustang and the metal is noticably hotter after the motor gets hot and especially in the summer months. It attains a higher temperature than the rest of the plastic system. All I have to do is put my hand on the different parts of the system and feel which is hotter.
Murillo noted, if you read the article on my site, that there was NO DIFFERENCE IN THE TUNE, with engine heat soak.
Sometimes simple logic is what decisions are based on.
JP..after reading over your reply, you bring up a very good point..However, what you didn't mention about the factory plastic meters are 2 very important factors.. First of all.. the factory meter is part of the factory air box, which also retained the factory panel filter. And second..the plastic materials in the factory meter itself, are constructed from a thick rotomolded design, which is why Ford did not experience any type of warpage problems..As for the SCT big mouth and Pro-M meters..YES, I definitely agree 100% with you, and here's why..both of those meters are constructed, from the very same rotomolded design, found in the factory meters, in fact..Granatelli Motorsports is working on a CAI kit. that will be using a MAF, similar to the SCT big mouth, which retains the stock MAF sensor.. Therefore what I don't understand is.. why not just re-design the SCT meter, and incorportate it as part of you're system ?? this way, there is no doubt about longevity issues..
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