Engine build. $7000 budget. What would you do?

#41
Bullitt347 said:
No witch doctors, just architecture. The LS port is quit a bit taller, just narrow. Now when you widen the narrow port, you end up with a large CC port. The LS7 uses the height of the cathedral port but is a whole lot wider to get the flow to support the 7 liters of displacement. My friends 09 Z06 with just exhaust, a Lingenfelter cam and a K&N cold air inlet made 540 whp with a tune. Not to shabby at all.

edit: I am not a chevy fan, but I appreciate HP. The one thing the LS engine has going for it is some ease of modifying it. I installed the Lingenfelter cam in my friends 09 Z06 and I did not have to remove the intake manifold. Just the valve covers ( to get the rocker arms and pushrods out), and timing cover. Timing cover was a pain because the P/S rack sits about 1 inch directly in front of the damper. We now have the cylinder heads off to let Lingenfelter port them, and with just hand tools I had the heads off in only 2 hours.
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I've owned both Chevy and Fords over the last 25 years of driving. I also appreciate HP. My heart is, however with the Ford Mustang. It was my first car and I always had a love affair with them, even though brand X has turned out some way more powerful engines. I guess I enjoy pulling for the underdog and being faster through less than conventional ways, which probably has a lot to do with why I question the Trick Flow product's superiority. Any body can take something fast and be fast with it, But you've gotta be really good, and know what you're doing to take something known for not being the fastest and hand someone's ass to them with it.:shrug:

Sadly, the LS engine's superiority is unquestionable, mostly because of the head design. I believe Trick Flow even offers a similar design called the high port for applications beyond what th TW can do, if I'm not mistaken?
 
#43
srtthis said:
I'd put a Yates headed SBF against a ls headed motor any day of the week
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Yeah. Not exactly a typical run-o-the mill after market either, now is it? They aren't even really marketed to the general public. For what Yates heads cost, they oughta out perform the space shuttle...
 
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#44
Hahaha good point sc1's ain't cheap by no means! But I'd put that same Yates headed combo up against any ls headed motor billet canted valve heads and all
 
#47
#48
Bullitt347 said:
You can by a used 358 cid D-3 headed engine from RoushYates for only $12,500. The engine has only 526 miles on it. http://www.roushyatesparts.com/Used-Racing-Engine-p/rye-eng-021.htm or this new 547 cid big block drag race engine with Kaase P-51 heads for only $27,500 http://www.roushyatesparts.com/Racing-Engine-p/rye-ce198.htm or just the heads......http://www.mbellc.com/index.php/d3-ford-large-port-h2o-or-solid


ooooops..................so much for the $7,000 budget:eek:
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What a bargain!!!:D
 
#50
madmike1157 said:
Does trick flow still make R heads?? I had those heads on the last two motors. They gotta be capable of some serious competition for the LS head????

Just did my own homework, why did they stop making them?
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I have no clue. I haven't read up on them in a while and honestly don't remember all of the models... I can say what I do remember is an LS motor will make 500 hp N/A with a few simple mods...intake, cam, headers, etc. That's on stock LS heads, ridiculous... nevermind a set of patriots or AFR's. They just have a better foundation to start with as bad as it pains me to say it.

This is just another reason I'm making plans for a snail. I need a bigger stick!
 
#51
Yea a bit more then 7k to do a Yates headed motor but the coupe motor on a smaller carb (1050 to the new 1250) and smaller cam made around 950hp on motor... Was 440 then should be around 442ish now
 
#52
SSeater said:
Historically canted valves do equal better performance. As Nik touched on... I'd like to see a dyno test performed in a scientific manner to yield honest rock solid results so consumers could have the facts...As opposed to inflated numbers or biased fan based opinion. The problem here again, as Nik stated, it is all about the combination...It's not as easy to nail down as testing say, a trio of new muscle cars..


Oh, and I'm still NOT completely sold on the idea of port velocity being a "voodoo" as opposed to a science of fluid dynamics.. Not that I'm well versed in that, it's just that scientifically there really is an answer for every thing.... mostly.:)

NIKwoaC FastDriver
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I say voodoo half sarcastically. People often spout off about it without really knowing what it does, or even how it is achieved. There are many variables that can theoretically increase velocity through the port- engine size, rod angularity, valve timing, port taper, etc. High velocity is not always a good thing, in a poorly designed or small port you can EASILY have turbulence and then it all falls apart. I really think velocity is just a piece of the puzzle, and what is MUCH more important is port efficiency- getting the most amount of air through the port with the least amount of turbulence as possible, so you're effectively filling the cylinder over a broad range of RPM and through the travel of the valve.

SSeater said:
I've owned both Chevy and Fords over the last 25 years of driving. I also appreciate HP. My heart is, however with the Ford Mustang. It was my first car and I always had a love affair with them, even though brand X has turned out some way more powerful engines. I guess I enjoy pulling for the underdog and being faster through less than conventional ways, which probably has a lot to do with why I question the Trick Flow product's superiority. Any body can take something fast and be fast with it, But you've gotta be really good, and know what you're doing to take something known for not being the fastest and hand someone's ass to them with it.:shrug:

Sadly, the LS engine's superiority is unquestionable, mostly because of the head design. I believe Trick Flow even offers a similar design called the high port for applications beyond what th TW can do, if I'm not mistaken?
Click to expand...

Stock for stock, of course the LS is superior. It should be, it's about 30 years younger than the SBF! Toss in the aftermarket though, and the Windsor is every bit as fearsome. Windsors took first place in both the Street and the Extreme classes of the last Engine Masters Challenge, beating out a LOT of LS engines. Neither one used Yates heads, either :D

By the way, the High Port has been around for a LONG time, it may even predate the LS. I don't think it has much in common with LS cylinder heads other than being a pushrod cylinder head, haha. It has a raised exhaust port, thus "High Port". It's supposed to be a pretty serious casting, they offer a few different CNC versions of it, the biggest one being the 240, which flows north of 350 CFM. The 205 is the biggest of the "regular" Twisted Wedge heads, but they offer a 225 Twisted Wedge "R" which flows around 340 CFM (different head, similar concept). The "R" also has a raised exhaust port.

I'm pretty well versed on Trick Flow's offerings, haha. I did a LOT of research on them (and AFR) when I was planning my engine build.
 
#54
NIKwoaC said:
I say voodoo half sarcastically. People often spout off about it without really knowing what it does, or even how it is achieved. There are many variables that can theoretically increase velocity through the port- engine size, rod angularity, valve timing, port taper, etc. High velocity is not always a good thing, in a poorly designed or small port you can EASILY have turbulence and then it all falls apart. I really think velocity is just a piece of the puzzle, and what is MUCH more important is port efficiency- getting the most amount of air through the port with the least amount of turbulence as possible, so you're effectively filling the cylinder over a broad range of RPM and through the travel of the valve.



Stock for stock, of course the LS is superior. It should be, it's about 30 years younger than the SBF! Toss in the aftermarket though, and the Windsor is every bit as fearsome. Windsors took first place in both the Street and the Extreme classes of the last Engine Masters Challenge, beating out a LOT of LS engines. Neither one used Yates heads, either :D

By the way, the High Port has been around for a LONG time, it may even predate the LS. I don't think it has much in common with LS cylinder heads other than being a pushrod cylinder head, haha. It has a raised exhaust port, thus "High Port". It's supposed to be a pretty serious casting, they offer a few different CNC versions of it, the biggest one being the 240, which flows north of 350 CFM. The 205 is the biggest of the "regular" Twisted Wedge heads, but they offer a 225 Twisted Wedge "R" which flows around 340 CFM (different head, similar concept). The "R" also has a raised exhaust port.

I'm pretty well versed on Trick Flow's offerings, haha. I did a LOT of research on them (and AFR) when I was planning my engine build.
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Nutswinger. :D
 
#55
SSeater said:
I have no clue. I haven't read up on them in a while and honestly don't remember all of the models... I can say what I do remember is an LS motor will make 500 hp N/A with a few simple mods...intake, cam, headers, etc. That's on stock LS heads, ridiculous... nevermind a set of patriots or AFR's. They just have a better foundation to start with as bad as it pains me to say it.

This is just another reason I'm making plans for a snail. I need a bigger stick!
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An LS1 won't make 500 with those mods. Guys with full on H/C/I setups and all the supporting mods are getting mid-to-high 400 range at the tire. An LS2 might make 500 with the mods you listed, but that's also a 6L engine.

The thing I envy about the LS community in general, is those guys aren't confined by 40 year old misconceptions about making power. Those guys have no problem running 90mm TBs, 1-7/8" headers, 320+ CFM heads, 11:1 compression, and they'll actually rev an engine past 6K :p More than half the SBF community still thinks all of that stuff is nonsense.
 
#57
NIKwoaC said:
An LS1 won't make 500 with those mods. Guys with full on H/C/I setups and all the supporting mods are getting mid-to-high 400 range at the tire. An LS2 might make 500 with the mods you listed, but that's also a 6L engine.
.
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I didn't say LS1... But let's put some heads on one and see what it does for giggles.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/732392-recipe-500-rwhp-heads-cam.html
I'm going to have to resume this debate later, man. I took one of my pain pills and it's making me:crazy:
 
#58
SSeater said:
I didn't say LS1... But let's put some heads on one and see what it does for giggles.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/732392-recipe-500-rwhp-heads-cam.html
I'm going to have to resume this debate later, man. I took one of my pain pills and it's making me:crazy:
Click to expand...

That is actually a really good read! These kind of concepts are exactly what I'm talking about. Maximizing TOTAL system inlet air port CFM (not just the head), maximizing exhaust flow, increasing compression, reducing parasitic losses, etc. The combo is a little ragged edge, and definitely not what the average joe would have produced, but very thought out and definitely produces the number. Notice how they pull the engine all the way to 7200 RPM, and that is a HYDRAULIC roller setup. SBF guys are all going "bah solid roller, blah blah blah". These guys have GOOD springs with a VERY light valvetrain, and they're making it happen.
 
#59
NIKwoaC said:
That is actually a really good read! These kind of concepts are exactly what I'm talking about. Maximizing TOTAL system inlet air port CFM (not just the head), maximizing exhaust flow, increasing compression, reducing parasitic losses, etc. The combo is a little ragged edge, and definitely not what the average joe would have produced, but very thought out and definitely produces the number. Notice how they pull the engine all the way to 7200 RPM, and that is a HYDRAULIC roller setup. SBF guys are all going "bah solid roller, blah blah blah". These guys have GOOD springs with a VERY light valvetrain, and they're making it happen.
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Don't forget attention to the quench..... Glad you liked it. FWIW, I used to spin a hydraulic liftered 357W to 8k... I don't exactly fit into the profile of these "preconcieved SBF guy notions" you keep mentioning...
 
#60
SSeater said:
Don't forget attention the quench..... Glad you liked it. FWIW, I used to spin a hydraulic liftered 357W to 8k... I don't exactly fit into the profile of these "preconcieved SBF guy notions" you keep mentioning...
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Careful admitting you buzzed the piss out of a 351w,....some folks around here will accuse you of not knowing what you were doing.
 
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