Fox Epas And Electric Brake Boosters

Davedacarpainter · Jan 30, 2018

I was just doing a little snooping. There is an older thread here about EPAS, no resolution to it, no one did it that I could find. Kind of interesting.

http://www.jegs.com/i/EPAS-Performance/563/1009/10002/-1

Any opinions or know someone that put an electrical system in their fox?

Noobz347 · Jan 30, 2018

That would clean out some 'stuff' from the engine bay, huh?

CarMichael Angelo · Jan 30, 2018

Davedacarpainter said:
I was just doing a little snooping. There is an older thread here about EPAS, no resolution to it, no one did it that I could find. Kind of interesting.

http://www.jegs.com/i/EPAS-Performance/563/1009/10002/-1

Any opinions or know someone that put an electrical system in their fox?

There's a thread around here where some guy has offered several solutions to do that with JY sourced product w/ yr, and vehicle make to get it from.
That'd be just the thing for somebody trying to get rid of some of the belt driven accessories that completely obscure the little engine that they're attache to, huh Dave?

RangerJoe · Jan 30, 2018

Not that particular kit, but there is a thread on one of the sites where someone outfitted their car with an electric steering unit from a newer model car. It is Definetly interesting.

Joe

RangerJoe · Jan 30, 2018

CarMichael Angelo said:
There's a thread around here where some guy has offered several solutions to do that with JY sourced product w/ yr, and vehicle make to get it from.
That'd be just the thing for somebody trying to get rid of some of the belt driven accessories that completely obscure the little engine that they're attache to, huh Dave?

Beat me to it. Started typing and had to pause for a few minutes, lol.

Joe

Ryuk · Jan 30, 2018

This thread has more than you'll ever want to know about the subject.

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/mod-custom-forum/787114-best-200-mod-ever-eps.html

Mustang5L5 · Jan 30, 2018

My main concern is using a hydraulic rack and deleting the hydraulic assist and installing these motors on the column.

Basically you've eliminated the help the pinion gets by the fluid in the rack and instead puts the full load on the pinion trying to move the rack. It wasn't designed for that sort of load.

Modern Fords use EPAS by locating the motor in the rack. So the column drives the pinion, and both the column and motor are drivingbyhe rack together.

needless to say I have some concerns about putting a motor on the column and driving a former hydraulic rack that way. Using it with a manual rack should work fine although the rack ratio with the epas might make it feel too light.

Now, Volvo electric power steering pump is interesting....

Davedacarpainter · Jan 30, 2018

I was thinking that with a new manual rack would be kind of a neat idea.

Hoytster · Jan 30, 2018

I wonder if there would be anyway to integrate a speed sensitive steering boost adjustment into that unit so you have more steering assist at lower speeds then at high speeds? I see it has an adjustment knob, but that seems like that would be a PITA to adjust all the time. I wonder how the steering feel would be also since you are assisting the steering through the column. Makes me think it would really make the steering feel numb. I remember the first vehicle I drove with electric steering and I hated it cause it was sooooo numb. They have improved the steering feel a lot on the newer vehicles, but that's with adaptive steering boost algorithms that takes into consideration much more than just the speed of the vehicle.

Not that I would be putting one of these in anyways, I have to run hyrdoboost for my brakes, so it would be pointless.

Davedacarpainter · Jan 30, 2018

Hoytster said:
I wonder if there would be anyway to integrate a speed sensitive steering boost adjustment into that unit so you have more steering assist at lower speeds then at high speeds? I see it has an adjustment knob, but that seems like that would be a PITA to adjust all the time. I wonder how the steering feel would be also since you are assisting the steering through the column. Makes me think it would really make the steering feel numb. I remember the first vehicle I drove with electric steering and I hated it cause it was sooooo numb. They have improved the steering feel a lot on the newer vehicles, but that's with adaptive steering boost algorithms that takes into consideration much more than just the speed of the vehicle.

Not that I would be putting one of these in anyways, I have to run hyrdoboost for my brakes, so it would be pointless.

Just to continue on my little thought train, how about electrically boosted brakes as well? No big ugly brake booster to get in the way of ones sweet little coyote. No vacuum needed or belt run pump.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1007sr-abs-electric-power-brake-system/

Mustang5L5 · Jan 30, 2018

You sure are putting a lot of faith into these electric systems. Look into the ford fusion and issues surrounding it's EPAS failures.

I'll stick to what's been proven to work

Ryuk · Jan 30, 2018

Here are a few videos. Apparently with the ebay controller, there may be an issue when the power goes out to the car, but that's not the case with a few other applications.

Noobz347 · Jan 30, 2018

Davedacarpainter said:
Just to continue on my little thought train, how about electrically boosted brakes as well? No big ugly brake booster to get in the way of ones sweet little coyote. No vacuum needed or belt run pump.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1007sr-abs-electric-power-brake-system/

The first thing that comes to mind with brakes is the artificial feel. There's no good way that comes to mind, to set or adjust that.

The other thing (while I'm at it) is that your steering will be completely disconnected from the road meaning that you're going to get zero road feedback from it. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing as I've never tested two identical cars with and without electric steering.

Hoytster · Jan 30, 2018

Mustang5L5 said:
You sure are putting a lot of faith into these electric systems. Look into the ford fusion and issues surrounding it's EPAS failures.

I'll stick to what's been proven to work

I'm skeptical of the electric steering and brakes also, but I have to say, there are a lot of car manufacturers out there doing the electric steering well. My Audi and Volvo both have electric steering and the feel is quite good, though not as good as a hydraulic system IMO. I've driven a lot of newer cars with electric steering and it is definitely better than it used to be, but as I said, they are taking a lot of inputs from the vehicle (speed, braking, steering angle, ect ect) to manipulate the boosting to get a good road feel. I've never driven a car with electric brakes. Reading through the link Dave posted it seems they have the a lot of the safety concerns worked out, but I'm still skeptical.

Noobz347 said:
The first thing that comes to mind with brakes is the artificial feel. There's no good way that comes to mind, to set or adjust that.

The other thing (while I'm at it) is that your steering will be completely disconnected from the road meaning that you're going to get zero road feedback from it. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing as I've never tested two identical cars with and without electric steering.

Exactly. I have a feeling electric brakes would feel a lot like the early electric steering solutions. Numb and uncommunicative.

Mustang5L5 · Jan 30, 2018

Hoytster said:
I'm skeptical of the electric steering and brakes also, but I have to say, there are a lot of car manufacturers out there doing the electric steering well. My Audi and Volvo both have electric steering and the feel is quite good, though not as good as a hydraulic system IMO. I've driven a lot of newer cars with electric steering and it is definitely better than it used to be, but as I said, they are taking a lot of inputs from the vehicle (speed, braking, steering angle, ect ect) to manipulate the boosting to get a good road feel. I've never driven a car with electric brakes. Reading through the link Dave posted it seems they have the a lot of the safety concerns worked out, but I'm still skeptical.

Exactly. I have a feeling electric brakes would feel a lot like the early electric steering solutions. Numb and uncommunicative.

Pretty much all the manufacturers have gone epas. Ford is I believe. My Taurus is epas and with 255s up front the steering is nice and heavy. I actually like it.

Only Infiniti has gone full drive by wire. They still maintain a physical coupling of steering wheel to rack, but it has an electric clutch that stays open unless there is an issue.

I'm certainly intrigued by the thought of adding epas, but only if necessary such as a coyote swap. Still, I love the innovation, I just think it needs a little more thinking behind some retrofits

HotFox · Jan 30, 2018

I think the ESAP is flawless on the GM cars for the better part of 10 years. I have a 2008 cobalt and feels even better then the old power steering. I remember dad telling me his 2011 F150 had electric steering, I'm like that's nice my 2008 cobalt had that too.

I kind of laugh when I go to the race and performance shows and see a company with a power steering resovoir targeted to the hot rod market. You would think these companies would be on board with the electric steer conversions.

Hoytster · Jan 30, 2018

Mustang5L5 said:
Pretty much all the manufacturers have gone epas. Ford is I believe. My Taurus is epas and with 255s up front the steering is nice and heavy. I actually like it.

Only Infiniti has gone full drive by wire. They still maintain a physical coupling of steering wheel to rack, but it has an electric clutch that stays open unless there is an issue.

I'm certainly intrigued by the thought of adding epas, but only if necessary such as a coyote swap. Still, I love the innovation, I just think it needs a little more thinking behind some retrofits

Yep, they have to meet EPA goals somehow IIRC, EPAS saves in the neighborhood of 1MPG over hydraulic. I guess I should give some of my perspective though as to why I said the older systems feel numb. In normal driving, EPAS has always performed well for me. Early systems were a little overboosted IMO (like 10-15 years ago), but still worked fine. It was when you got really aggressive, such as on a track, that you started to feel the differences between hydraulic and electric. The hydraulic just always gave more feedback IMO, you could feel the slip angle of the tires changing, feel variations in the road surface and grip, and react according. Electric was numb and left a lot to be desired, for me.

With that being said, the newer systems feel great at or beyond the limits, but I still haven't driven an EPAS car that felt quite as good as a well designed hydraulic system. I'm splitting hairs here and a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I got the chance to drive a 991 last year on the track and that was the first car that made me think "this EPAS thing might not be so bad".

Now, the manufacturers obviously have many more resources at their disposal to develop a good EPAS system. As I stated before, they are monitoring many vehicle variables to adjust the steering in real time to produce a near hydraulic feel. Being able to accomplish this on a swapped vehicle will be nearly impossible. We don't have the inputs and logic available to be able to tune a system to feel great at the limit like the manufacturers do. That's why I say I'm betting the steering on a system like Dave posted might be kind of numb, at the limit. Essentially that system is just an electric steering boost with no other logic controlling it, that I can see.

But who knows, it might be awesome and prove me wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Hoytster · Jan 30, 2018

Here's a cool article that goes over some tests Car and Driver did like 5 years ago comparing electric and hydraulic.

https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...ering-a-comprehensive-comparison-test-feature

I'd like to get on a track with a GT350 and feel how that electric steering feels. I've been told Ford is spot on with their tuning on that one.

Davedacarpainter · Jan 30, 2018

Hoytster said:
Here's a cool article that goes over some tests Car and Driver did like 5 years ago comparing electric and hydraulic.

https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...ering-a-comprehensive-comparison-test-feature

I'd like to get on a track with a GT350 and feel how that electric steering feels. I've been told Ford is spot on with their tuning on that one.

So all I got to do is find a totaled GT350 then?

Davedacarpainter · Jan 30, 2018

Noobz347 said:
The first thing that comes to mind with brakes is the artificial feel. There's no good way that comes to mind, to set or adjust that.

The other thing (while I'm at it) is that your steering will be completely disconnected from the road meaning that you're going to get zero road feedback from it. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing as I've never tested two identical cars with and without electric steering.

Honestly Noobz, I don't think the brakes will have a total disconnect feel. It's not replacing the master cylinder, it just provides the boost similar in feel to what a regular vacuum booster would do.

The steering isn't a total disconnect either, the kits i've been looking at aren't drive by wire. They provide an electrical assist to a manual steering setup. It might take away somewhat, but I'm not going to be racing like @Hoytster , I would notice a change in feel to a standard fox rack, but would I be sensitive to notice an apparent lack of sensitivity? My wife would say, "No":zombie:. I am thinking along the lines of a cleaned up engine bay too.

All that said, I don't really know. Just thoughts for when I get to the rebuild stage. Serious thoughts though.

Fox Epas And Electric Brake Boosters

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I don't dare do that to my Knob

Chicks can make things hard if they’re inspired...

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell

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I don't dare do that to my Knob

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell

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