Handguns...

Swarzkopf said:

Not in Pennsylvania.

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but he asked for hand gun. i know you gun buy rifles at 18. maybe pennsylvania is different

Yes, that's what we've been saying. The law in Pennsylvania states that you must be 21 to buy a handgun. Other states may be different.

Supprised you haven't told him to go buy an AK Guero

I got a couple of those...lot of fun.

If you are going to own a gun for home protection then take classes if your state has them. I have my concealed permit and took a few classes on gun safety for your home. It's good to know the laws in your State. I also frequent my local gun range 15 times a year.

I won't get into the 9MM is good for home protection because I for one think a .40 is the minimum caliber for every hand gun. Sure having extra shots is cool and all but there is a reason the FBI and all Government agencies (excluding State police) carry .40's. I saw the crystal meth video were the guy kept getting up after being hit several times with a 9MM. The cannon I own would have done the trick with one shot.

H&K UPS Compact .45 Other then the Walther .40 in my opinion H&K's are the best hands down. I could have bought anything.
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The cannon I own would have done the trick with one shot.

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I disagree. One CNS shot? Sure.

A shot to the shoulder from even the hottest loaded, heaviest bullet, biggest hollow tip .45 ACP will NOT have near the safe effect as a CNS shot from a 9mm.

I do understand your point, and it's valid- you are more likely to score a devastating hit from a higher caliber weapon (though .45 is NEVER my first choice, I prefer a faster moving smaller bullet). However, for the first time gunner, it's better to aquire the needed skills with a tamer round that you are more likely to practice with (because ammo is FAR cheaper and it's more pleasurable to shoot).

I used to carry, when I lived in a bad neighborhood. I carried a 2" barrel Taurus .357 mag revolver loaded with 125 grain JHPs. This is NOT a gun I'd recommend to a first timer, but I am an experienced handgunning and it fit me well.

Swarzkopf said:

I disagree. One CNS shot? Sure.

A shot to the shoulder from even the hottest loaded, heaviest bullet, biggest hollow tip .45 ACP will NOT have near the safe effect as a CNS shot from a 9mm.

I do understand your point, and it's valid- you are more likely to score a devastating hit from a higher caliber weapon (though .45 is NEVER my first choice, I prefer a faster moving smaller bullet). However, for the first time gunner, it's better to aquire the needed skills with a tamer round that you are more likely to practice with (because ammo is FAR cheaper and it's more pleasurable to shoot).

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I'm guessing “CNS” referred to (which I have never heard of) is some sort of special frangible round (one that breaks up into multiple pieces on impact like a dinner plate shattering). There are mountains of statistics on mortality rates for various types of ammo taken from the military and law enforcement shootouts, and the good old .45 Automatic Colt Pistol round has been at or near the top of the “one shot kill” score for 95 years for a reason (since the Colt model 1911 named after the year of its production). The simple point of stopping power is not as easy as the formula for energy which is mass times velocity squared (E=m x v^2). True you get a higher energy with a faster moving round; however, the muzzle velocities in feet per second between a 9mm and a .45 ACP are comparable so it takes a magnum round like the .357 Mag with a much higher muzzle velocity to dramatically increase the energy due to much higher velocity (the 9mm and the .357 are so close in diameter that the same cleaning brush kit is used for both). So if the velocities are the same you then compare mass of the bullet head, and the typical .45 ACP round at 230 grains is exactly double the mass of the typical 115 grain 9mm round so with energy equals mass times velocity squared when you double the mass you double the impact energy.



Now comes a second point from the medical side instead of the physics side: wound channel. The wound channel created by a bullet entering soft tissue is a horizontal cone shape whereby the bullet creates a sort of sideways tornado in the soft tissue. The surface area on the inside of this cone relates to how much bleeding will occur into the center of the wound channel thus leading to the person hemorrhaging so fast that they lose consciousness and can no longer fight you and ultimately bleeding to death. The more surface area inside the cone, the higher the percentage of “one shot stopping power” as related to a single shot to the torso of an average size human. The much larger diameter of the .45 ACP creates a dramatically larger wound channel than a 9mm because of larger diameter of the bullet and the flatter shape of the .45 ACP profile versus the 9mm’s more elongated/elliptical profile (plus it has about twice the energy still pushing it through the tissue). Compare this to dropping an egg (the 9mm) into a bucket of water versus a soup can (the .45 ACP) – the soup can causes way more water to be forced out of the way making a large air channel behind it as it enters the water. Try this experiment for fun!



You can find all sorts of articles on this situation, because numerous law enforcement agencies got rid of their 9mm pistols in favor of the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP because several officers have died after shooting subjects multiple times with 9mm rounds yet the subjects were able to keep fighting. There are documents cases of subjects being hit with 21 and 33 rounds of 9mm yet they still kept fighting back. The FBI eliminated the 9mm across the board after a famed shootout with bank robbers in Miami where several agents were killed after using ineffective 9mm rounds. The FBI actually developed the .40 S&W caliber because their smaller agents and women agents couldn’t’ handle the recoil from the 10 mm caliber they try changing to (the 10 mm round is actual a sort of magnum round compare to the 9mm as it holds significantly more powder charge in a much long shell casing in addition to being a millimeter larger in diameter – the .40 S&W is basically a cut down 10 mm round).

When I was really into shooting back in college going to the range every single week, I had a lot of discussions with the SWAT guys. Not one of them would consider carrying a 9mm pistol except for a backup gun because of it’s ineffectiveness. I would personally rather get hit 2-3 times with a 9mm versus once with a .45 ACP.

I'm guessing “CNS” referred to (which I have never heard of) is some sort of special frangible round (one that breaks up into multiple pieces on impact like a dinner plate shattering).

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"Central Nervous System"- which is the ONLY impact area in which you''re guaranteed to stop a human target with one shot from a pistol.

CNS targets include the neck, head, and centerline of the torso. The large majority of defense oriented firearms instructors teach their students to aim for direct center mass- the goal here is to score a CNS hit entering through the chest and exiting through the spine, incapacitating the attacker. It doesn't hurt that you're likely to simultanesouly pierce the heart or lungs.


As you said, the most fundamental aspect of a handgun round's effectiveness for a non-CNS hit is the wound channel it creates. Handgun rounds, with the exception of the highest caliber hunting rounds (.454 Casull, .500 S&W, ect) do not create enough energy period to inflict hydrostatic shock damage like rifle rounds.


Again, I place more value on trained shooting and accuracy then on handgun power, and hence place little faith in the "one shot stop" statistics...but that said, as far as I recall 125 grain .357 Magnum jacketed hollow points always top the lists, with .40 S&W JHPs next and .45 a third.


Just for ****s and giggles, I gave it a quick Google and came up with this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

According to that, the most effective .45 ACP registers a 94% one shot stop effectiveness, while the most effective 9mm is pretty close at 91% (.357 mag shows at 96%).


Like I said, I understand your point and to a large degree I agree with you, hence why when I carried I carried a .357 magnum. But, I'd rather a new gunner learn to shoot accurately and effectively with a 9mm then shoot poorly with a .45 or .40- because I believe that accuracy and good shoot placement with a 9mm will serve one better in a defense situation then poor or even mediocre shooting with a .45.

Here's a good article on the whole topic if anyone's interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

I don't agree with everything there, but it brings up some interesting points.

lol an ak is a perfect home defense house!!!!!!lol you'll hit the bad guy and the bullet will go thru him into the wall and into someone who is sleeping lol

If you don't care about your neighbors, it's hard to beat an assault rifle for home defense.

I DID almost use an AK for home defense once...luckily, I don't live in that neighborhood anymore.

hmmmmmm, i used it once. went thru the truck, thru a cavaleir and into a neighbors tv. and so did 6 more lol

Guero said:

lol an ak is a perfect home defense house!!!!!!lol you'll hit the bad guy and the bullet will go thru him into the wall and into someone who is sleeping lol

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LOL yeah 3 houses down


I am jk before I get corrected. Swarz gets touchey on this subject

lol!!!!1

I am jk before I get corrected. Swarz gets touchey on this subject

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LMAO

Sorry guys, I can't help it. I'll try to be better.


Buddy of mine just bought a Sig Sauer P239 (compact .40)....man, Sigs are smooth and sexy hanguns.

I stoped by the gun store the other night and took a look at a few guns.. I may just go with a cheap 9MM for my first gun and go on from there... I mean, I can always get more than one, right?

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SMART MAN!! *thumbs up*

I was looking at a beretta for about 270 and a very small taurus for about 310.

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A 92 series Beretta? Good deal for $270 and would make a great first gun.

Stay away from the compact Taurus semi-autos; I had one, a PT111, and it was VERY problematic.

Swarzkopf said:

LMAO


Buddy of mine just bought a Sig Sauer P239 (compact .40)....man, Sigs are smooth and sexy hanguns.

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Love it.


zZsKyZz, since 80% of all home protection gun battles happen in 11 feet or less get then go with a .40 caliber. Blow a barn door hole through the perp.

May I ask what the problems were and such?

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First I dealt with REPEATED failures to fire...I had to send the gun back to Taurus where the replaced both the firing pin and spring.

Then, it jammed and jammed and jammed...keep in mind, I own a bunch of guns and none besides an M1 Garand which had been built to incorrect specs jammed like this Taurus. I traded it in on a Polish Makarov, great trade.

What would you suggest for anything else? I was talking to my friend who is really into guns [his father is a state trooper and owns a beretta] and he suggested berettas and H&K? is h&k right?

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Beretta's are "okay". For a first gun at the right price, a 9mm 92 series Beretta would be fine.

H&Ks are okay too...in my opinion, they are very overpriced as they don't offer any improvement over comparable Sig Sauer pieces for several hundred dollars less. Furthermore, Sig and Glock have the best reputations as far as reliability and durability go. If you want the *best* semiauto for self defense, in my opinion you want either a Sig or a Glock.

Keep in mind the best self defense gun isn't always the best range gun- a 9mm 92 series Beretta would be a pretty good compromise (especially at the right price). A 9mm Glock 17 or Sig Sauer P226 would do you real well also, but they're usually a little more even used.

I think your on the right track with considering a full or larger compact 9mm (Beretta 92, Glock 17, Sig P226, ect) as your first gun, then moving into a more concealable, more defense oriented piece later on (Glock 23, Sig P239, ect).

I should add that yeah...Beretta 92s are REAL nice to shoot at the range. Accurate, nice triggers, ect.