Head bolts vs head studs

hollywoodstang · Nov 6, 2008

Hi guys. I got new heads(again...)This time some newer edelbrock performers(part# 60379).

I was wondering what i should use? bolts vs studs? Hex or 12pt?

How about intake bolts 6pt or 12pt? chromemoly or stainless steel?

And what head gaskets to use. I been using fel pro 1011-2's do i use these on these heads also?

I am N/A with no power-adder.

And if you can give me the part #s That would be great.

I want to get this thing done. I been rolling around with stock heads after i sold the GT40X heads. would i notice little more difference?

Also I am using steeda #19 camshaft. Should i go something bigger?

Can i use regular pushrod with these new heads also?

Thanks

nmcgrawj · Nov 6, 2008

you read my mind....studs for both the lower intake and headers will help install. I used to use 2 cut off bolts to align the lower as I lowered it...but I switched to studs.

Im going to get header studs today. It seems the 12pt will allow a smaller wrench, but hex nuts will still allow you to use a open ended wrench (right term?) turning it a tiny bit at a time which is what I do now with my bolts. I even grinded down the outside edge of the wrench so I can turn it more.

Thoughts?

BlackVert · Nov 6, 2008

i have studs for all those as well ... imo, they make life easier and i'm 95% sure you can reuse the head studs if you need to take the heads off for whatever reason

sorry i have no part numbers but i got them all from summit

nmcgrawj · Nov 6, 2008

u have hex or 12pt header studs? Opinion on them?

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 6, 2008

For stock compression, you really don't need anything more than stock hardware. The only time you're gonna start taxing things is with the use of a power adder at this point. I'm not saying studs are a waste of money, but they're an unnecessary expense for your application.

Grn92LX · Nov 6, 2008

fel pro 9333pt-1 head gaskets.

toyman · Nov 6, 2008

FWIW I'm using ARP 154-4001 Head studs with my Eddy 60359 heads and MRG 3165/6G Cometic Head Gaskets.

hollywoodstang · Nov 6, 2008

Okay...so i am getting mixed opinions again. I am not building a race car so which ones do i need? I been using regular head bolts but i wanted to know if studs are better for later or something.

Oh...and i couldn't find the intake studs...i went to summit site and they only have bolts. So what's the deal? Do you think head studs and intake studs are overkill on my application?

Thanks

hollywoodstang · Nov 6, 2008

What is this gasket? MRG 3165/6G Cometic Head Gaskets. never heard of it...are they for N/A or power adder application?

toyman · Nov 6, 2008

hollywoodstang said:
What is this gasket? MRG 3165/6G Cometic Head Gaskets. never heard of it...are they for N/A or power adder application?

3165G and 3166G left side and right side.

see this

Mr. Gasket Multi-Layered Steel Head Gaskets: MRG-3166G - AtechMotorsports.com

hollywoodstang · Nov 6, 2008

Thanks for all the help. I decided to go with just ARP head bolt and intake bolts. I will get the studs next year or two when i have enough money to go bigger motor(studs are 3 times more then bolts *shock*). Bolts should be fine for now for my application.

Just ordered the head gaskets, intake gaskets and exhaust gaskets(i totally forgot about these)

Thanks all for your help.

Another thing i want to ask is i have 306 now, should i go 331 for the street or something smaller? like 311 or 313? I know 347 is not the ideal motor for me. I want to keep the car on the street. 311 or 313 odd size motor size is more expensive to build right?

Thanks

Grn92LX · Nov 7, 2008

hollywoodstang said:
Another thing i want to ask is i have 306 now, should i go 331 for the street or something smaller? like 311 or 313? I know 347 is not the ideal motor for me. I want to keep the car on the street. 311 or 313 odd size motor size is more expensive to build right?

Thanks

Huh?? wtf?

final5-0 · Nov 7, 2008

hollywoodstang said:
Another thing i want to ask is i have 306 now, should i go 331 for the street or something smaller? like 311 or 313? I know 347 is not the ideal motor for me. I want to keep the car on the street. 311 or 313 odd size motor size is more expensive to build right?

Thanks

I'd like to get your opinion or reasons as to why the 347 would not
be a good choice for a street motor

I haven't seen much discussion on this subject lately
so
Considering we got a lot of new peeps these days

Lets kick this topic around a bit

Grady

hollywoodstang · Nov 8, 2008

347 or 331?

Well...The reason i ask is i always see a kit for 331 or 347. and i have seen/heard 347 and they run very rough. May be the one i have seen needed to be "Tuned" but i think it's too much for the street. and i heard 331 is more of reliable choice between the two.

1st doesn't 347 have oiling problem of some sort? or is it a myth?
2nd I want your opinion on 331 or 347 for the street.

Also i have seen 311 ci car(well...he claims to be it is) anyways he runs in N/A and he has everything stock. I have seen this car at the irwindale raceway. he is dam quick and he drove to the track and drove it back home. I want that kind of reliability

I will be doing this may be next year and i would like to keep the heads that i got now to work with. I might as well start buying the parts now little here and there so when i actually do the swap it will be easier on the wallet.

I have seen CHP and D.S.S blocks too. are they better choice? instead of buying the kit? seems like $1700 for built block don't sound so bad.

I don't know i think i am confusing myself but if not why would i ask these questions

thanks guys

nmcgrawj · Nov 8, 2008

a 347 can run just as smooth as a 331 or 302 or 289. Its all about how rough a cam you run and your tune. You can get a pretty lopey cam to run as solid as stock...just with a good lope....with a good tune.

Don't correlate more cubes for less reliability or less smoothness. **** a stock 302 with a radical cam can be really rough. Its ALL about your package. The new ZR1 vette is a 427. Its smooth as a baby's butt. :LOL:

There are no oiling issues with a 347. Its not a myth...its just the past. There are new designs that avoid oil issues. A 347 will have a faster piston speed, so some say it "should" wear the walls down faster than 331 or 347....but there's zero proof that this wear is significant in the big picture. Get a good guy to assemble the short block (insert Rick from here) and you'll be golden.

For a street car you want all the cubes you can get. So 347 it is. No replacement for displacement on the street. The cam and tune will determine driveability not cubic inches. **** if anything more cubes would be easier to drive IMO. Unless u are trying to build I a high high high revving motor, I see no advantage to those 331s 311s or whatever other weird combos.

Bottom line:

For the street go 347. Pick a cam to fit your heads, imtake, and your wants/needs, get it all built and tuned well and you'll have exactly what you want.

revhead347 · Nov 10, 2008

Some of the older 347 kits used a stock rod length, which placed the wrist pin right through where the oil control ring was on the piston. That's what caused the oil burning problem. The newer 347 kits have a different rod length which fixes the problem. My 347 has about 80,000 miles on it and runs great. Like the general concensus, more cubes for a street engine. In retrospect, I really regret not going to a 351 block when I built my new engine.

And one more thing, did you say you were running a Steeda #19 cam with stock heads?

Kurt

5spd GT · Nov 11, 2008

Alright, I will bite and play the devil's advocate.

Here are what two top-notch people have to say about a subject related to what is being discussed here:

Larry Meaux says:

From all the various Rod Ratio engines ive had on my Dyno so far, once you go under 1.50:1, blow-by CFM steadily increases, but you can resolve this with Vac-Pump or use some stages of DrySump Pump to scavenge/vacuum..and this will make more HP/TQ.

But if the particular Block you have is moving around and the Rod Ratio is small with a lot of stroke, + a lot of windage ..those small rod ratios have increasing BlowBy issues that have to taken care of.

Darin Morgan stated this below as well:

Most people tend to overgeneralize this issue. It would be more accurate to compare different rod-to-stroke ratios, and from a mathematical stand-point, a couple thousandths of an inch of rod length doesn't really change things a lot in an engine. We've conducted tests for GM on NASCAR engines where we varied rod ratio from 1.48- to 1.85:1. In the test, mean piston speeds were in the 4,500-4,800 feet-per-second range, and we took painstaking measures to minimize variables. The result was zero difference in average power and a zero difference in the shape of the horse-power curves. However, I'm not going to say there's absolutely nothing to rod ratio, and there are some pitfalls of going above and below a certain point. At anything below a 1.55:1 ratio, rod angularity is such that it will increase the side loading of the piston, increase piston rock, and increase skirt load. So while you can cave in skirts on a high-end engine and shorten its life, it won't change the actual power it makes. Above 1.80- or 1.85:1, you can run into an induction lag situation where there's so little piston movement at TDC that you have to advance the cam or decrease the cross-sectional area of your induction package to increase velocity. Where people get into trouble is when they get a magical rod ratio in their head and screw up the entire engine design trying to achieve it. The rod ratio is pretty simple. Take whatever stroke you have, then put the wrist pin as high as you can on the piston without getting into the oil ring. What-ever connects the two is your rod length.

So, does anyone think it is a coincidence that these R:S ratios exist?

NASCAR (9.00" deck height) - 1.93
Formula 1 - 2.0-2.5 (18-20K RPM)
Pro Stock - 1.71

What if you compare the rod to bore centerline angle between a few of the SBF engine combinations?

17.139* - 302 (5.090")
17.513* - 331 (5.400")
18.350* - 347 (5.400")

Rod is Divided by Stroke:

302 Blocks

289/293 (5.155"/2.87") - 1.79
302/306 (5.090"/3.00") - 1.70/1.80 (5.400")
327/331 (5.315"/3.25") - 1.64
327/331 (5.400"/3.25") - 1.66
342/347 (5.315"/3.40") - 1.56
342/347 (5.400"/3.40") - 1.59
352/355 (5.205"/3.50") - 1.49

351 Windsor

351/357 (5.956"/3.50") - 1.70
387/393 (5.956"/3.85") - 1.55
387/393 (6.200"/3.85") - 1.61
402/408 (6.200"/4.00") - 1.55
412/418 (6.200"/4.10") - 1.51

351 Cleveland

351 (5.778"/3.50") - 1.65
383 (5.850"/3.75") - 1.56
396 (6.000"/3.85") - 1.56
408 (6.000"/4.00") - 1.50
426 (6.000"/4.17") - 1.44

Big Bore

427 (6.200"/4.00" - 1.55

429 and 460 Strokers

429 (6.605"/3.550") - 1.86
460 (6.605"/3.850") - 1.72
501 (6.800"/4.150") - 1.64
532 (6.800"/4.300") - 1.58
557 (6.800"/4.440") - 1.53

Modular:

4.6L 2V (5.933"/3.543") - 1.674
4.6L 3V (5.933"/3.543") - 1.674
4.6L 4V (5.933"/3.543") - 1.674
5.4L 2V (6.657"/4.165") - 1.598
5.4L 3V (6.657"/4.165") - 1.598
5.4L 4V (6.657"/4.165") - 1.598

GM:

LT1-1.638
LT4-1.638
LT5-1.568
383-1.520
383-1.600
LS1-1.684
LS2-1.684
LS3-1.684
LS6-1.684
LS7-1.517
LS9-1.657
L92-1.684

Mopar:

5.7L HEMI-1.744

Either way, I would choose a 347 over a 331 in an N/A situation. Just have a good engine builder that knows what he is doing.

By the way, a 347 does not and never has used a stock rod length. Also, there is not "new technology" that fixed the 347 "oil problem." They just got rid of the oil ringland wrist pin gap, like 99.99% of vehicles on the road.

final5-0 · Nov 11, 2008

5spd GT said:
Alright, I will bite and play the devil's advocate.

Here are what two top-notch people have to say about a subject related to what is being discussed here:

Good Stuff Mr. David

Grady

hollywoodstang · Nov 11, 2008

That was great info! It helped me alot on which ci i should go for. I chose to go with 347. So my next question is Which company i should go for. I am planning on getting a complete built/assembled block.

I know CHP and D.S.S which is better company to deal with? and has better reputation? the CHP is local to me but i have also seen/heard about D.S.S being good. and when i went to both of their website i see about 6 different 347 option plus Level 2,10,20 options. and it's confusing the hell out me...

I am planning to drive this on the street which is going to stay N/A so which SHORTBLOCK do i need?

I see the entry level bullitt short block:
<table style="width: 95%;" id="AutoNumber2" class="style8" bordercolordark="#000000" bordercolorlight="#000000" align="center" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="311"><tbody><tr><td class="style143" width="33%" height="14"> BB347SX3300 STROKER</td> <td class="style39" width="33%" height="14"> Bullet 347 -3cc Flat Top</td> <td class="style39" width="34%" align="center" height="14"> $1999.95</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style143" width="33%" height="14"> BB347SX3337 STROKER</td> <td class="style39" width="33%" height="14"> Bullet 347 -18cc Dish Low Compression</td> <td class="style39" width="34%" align="center" height="14"> $2049.95</td></tr></tbody></table>
And Install D.S.S. Billet Aluminum Main support System Add $350.00<----Do i need this?

And when i went to CHP they have Dome top, Flat top, reverse dome piston options. which one is for my application?

Can you guys help me pick one?

This will be my first stroker so i have no idea...I get the general idea but i am not well educated in piston design and compression ratio. i am just trying to buy the short block now when i have the cash available.

Thanks alot guys

hollywoodstang · Nov 11, 2008

How do you determine what compression you want to run? Is a higher compression always better? What are the pros and cons?

My heads are 60cc Combustion Chambers. What Compression should i stay for daily driven car?

is 9.00 : 1 Compression a good choice for the street? CHP combo advertise 9:1 comp and D.S.S advertise 8.68 i guess which are same thing.

Thanks

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revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

5spd GT

"the 5.0 owns all"

final5-0

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