headers a waste of money?

Dallasgt01 · Mar 3, 2004

i just installed a set of BBK LTs and man it was a PITA but it is worth saving the $$$ trust me....Hmmm..4.5Hrs of work 500.00 nope with that extra money buy soem cams

Dr. Wu 2000 · Mar 3, 2004

Sounds like if you do it yourself the cost is not a question, but what
about the power gains. Is it just SOTP or do you see good hp and tq
numbers. Mostly question for the bolt on guys. Any before and after
install numbers would be great. Thanx.

mogs01gt · Mar 3, 2004

Dr. Wu 2000 said:
I have been considering installing headers but my shop has told me
for the cost and the difficulty of removing the stock headers, the
gains are just not worth it. I have had a number of exhaust installers
tell me this, and that is thier business. Does anyone have solid proof
that they are worth the install. I can see maybe if you are supercharged
or have major mods, but for the normal bolt-on's, is it worth it?

They are worth every penny and every hour you spend installing them.

Nick

decoy562 · Mar 3, 2004

Dr. Wu 2000 said:
Sounds like if you do it yourself the cost is not a question, but what
about the power gains. Is it just SOTP or do you see good hp and tq
numbers. Mostly question for the bolt on guys. Any before and after
install numbers would be great. Thanx.

I heard the gains are around 25 horsepower, I'm sure more if you're supercharged.

GTMomma02 · Mar 3, 2004

SR 97 GT said:
My local shop wants $1400 for headers and a midpipe installed. Call me crazy but I think that's a bit high.

I was quoted over $2000 for parts (LT headers, midpipe and catback) and 12 hours of labor. I ended up going with just the mid-pipe and the magnapacks.

2000GT · Mar 3, 2004

Dr. Wu 2000 said:
I have been considering installing headers but my shop has told me
for the cost and the difficulty of removing the stock headers, the
gains are just not worth it. I have had a number of exhaust installers
tell me this, and that is thier business. Does anyone have solid proof
that they are worth the install. I can see maybe if you are supercharged
or have major mods, but for the normal bolt-on's, is it worth it?

This question comes up just about everyday and I won’t let you receive misleading opinions. I am assuming you are talking about longtube headers. People with LT headers will tell you it’s worth it and people without them (me) will tell you its not. Occasionally, you will get an honest answer out of someone that has LT’s and they will tell you it’s not worth it.

Here are FACTS:

1) you don’t just install LT headers by themselves. You also need to purchase a new mid-pipe so the cost does not just boil down to the headers alone. Oh, you will also need to purchase MIL eliminators or a chip because you will get a check engine light.
2) headers AND the new mid-pipe will produce nice gains on STOCK GT, however, most of the gain is from removing your stock mid-pipe (the one with all those cats) and not from the headers.
3) the best way to prove to you that the gains come from the mid pipe is too look at all the GT’s producing nice dyno results WITHOUT headers. Now compare those to the GT’s with headers. Even compare their trap speeds and you will see.
4) most GT’s with and without LT headers dyno between 250-260 SAE rwhp (I have yet to see one higher without internal engine work performed – cams)
5) my car does not have headers and it dynoed @ 250 rwhp SAE
6) tons of GT’s will dyno between 250 and 260 rwhp WITHOUT HEADERS.
7) the dyno curve with headers is the same without headers

Here are the MYTHS:

1) they produce more avg. rwhp.
2) they are needed on GT’s even if you plan on staying N/A
3) you can just buy headers by themselves and bolt them in.

Someone was kind enough to finally send me their Dynojet file with LT’s, o/r x pipe, Maganpacks and K&N filter. I will be posting their dyno graph and my dyno graph on Stangnet soon. I am still trying to figure out to post the graph and I am guessing I won’t get any help from the members with LT’s. If you are looking for good gains from headers, I strongly suggest you wait to see my graphs. Headers installed with a new mid-pipe will produce more power, but so will a mid pipe installed with you stock manifolds. You can get to 250-260 rwhp SAE without headers and it will save you money and time. That’s all I am trying to say.

I am not out to give you misleading info. I can admit when a mod. isn’t worth the money or time. In fact, I have C&L MAF. Don’t waste your money on one, the stock MAF is just fine if you plan on using bolt-on mods. for the life of your car.

billyfe390 · Mar 3, 2004

If the point of making more power is by getting more air into and out of your engine tell me again how headers are a waste of money.

mogs01gt · Mar 3, 2004

2000GT said:
This question comes up just about everyday and I won’t let you receive misleading opinions. I am assuming you are talking about longtube headers. People with LT headers will tell you it’s worth it and people without them (me) will tell you its not. Occasionally, you will get an honest answer out of someone that has LT’s and they will tell you it’s not worth it.

Here are FACTS:

1) you don’t just install LT headers by themselves. You also need to purchase a new mid-pipe so the cost does not just boil down to the headers alone. Oh, you will also need to purchase MIL eliminators or a chip because you will get a check engine light.
2) headers AND the new mid-pipe will produce nice gains on STOCK GT, however, most of the gain is from removing your stock mid-pipe (the one with all those cats) and not from the headers.
3) the best way to prove to you that the gains come from the mid pipe is too look at all the GT’s producing nice dyno results WITHOUT headers. Now compare those to the GT’s with headers. Even compare their trap speeds and you will see.
4) most GT’s with and without LT headers dyno between 250-260 SAE rwhp (I have yet to see one higher without internal engine work performed – cams)
5) my car does not have headers and it dynoed @ 250 rwhp SAE
6) tons of GT’s will dyno between 250 and 260 rwhp WITHOUT HEADERS.
7) the dyno curve with headers is the same without headers

Here are the MYTHS:

1) they produce more avg. rwhp.
2) they are needed on GT’s even if you plan on staying N/A
3) you can just buy headers by themselves and bolt them in.

Someone was kind enough to finally send me their Dynojet file with LT’s, o/r x pipe, Maganpacks and K&N filter. I will be posting their dyno graph and my dyno graph on Stangnet soon. I am still trying to figure out to post the graph and I am guessing I won’t get any help from the members with LT’s. If you are looking for good gains from headers, I strongly suggest you wait to see my graphs. Headers installed with a new mid-pipe will produce more power, but so will a mid pipe installed with you stock manifolds. You can get to 250-260 rwhp SAE without headers and it will save you money and time. That’s all I am trying to say.

I am not out to give you misleading info. I can admit when a mod. isn’t worth the money or time. In fact, I have C&L MAF. Don’t waste your money on one, the stock MAF is just fine if you plan on using bolt-on mods. for the life of your car.

if you don't want to post misleading opinions, then why post this opinionated bull'Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me'. How long have headers been around? How many of the fast 4.6s, 302, 351, 408s, 427s, 289s, ect ect. have headers? Look at any of the fast n/a 4.6 2vs, show me one that doenst have headers.

You can post your dyno and I will post mine and I guarantee mine will look better with only headers, chip and a POS CAI I had on for looks.

stangman · Mar 3, 2004

i'll post some before & after dyno's very soon to put this to rest first it was my dyno's air brake wsa broke, now i have a crack in my passenger side header but i will get a before & after headers run no matter what. the new headers should get taken care of today if we do get it done today i'll try to get the sheets posted tonight, but it might be tomorrow before we get the new set of headers back on. so just bear with me & i'll put this argument to bed

(hopefully we get this done by the end of this week, cause i'm going down to florida on friday, so if it's not done by then, i'll have to wait until the next week to get it all done)

2000GT · Mar 3, 2004

mogs01gt said:
if you don't want to post misleading opinions, then why post this opinionated bull'Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me'. How long have headers been around? How many of the fast 4.6s, 302, 351, 408s, 427s, 289s, ect ect. have headers? Look at any of the fast n/a 4.6 2vs, show me one that doenst have headers.

You can post your dyno and I will post mine and I guarantee mine will look better with only headers, chip and a POS CAI I had on for looks.

Ok, look at home many of the fast 2V 4.6's DON'T have headers. I never once referenced headers not being worth it on any other motor. My point is that they are not needed if you plan on staying N/A and never craking open the engine like 99% of the people in this forum. That's why the guy who started this post wanted to know.

Deal, please tell me how to post dyno sheets.

2000GT · Mar 3, 2004

c2see21 said:
i'll post some before & after dyno's very soon to put this to rest first it was my dyno's air brake wsa broke, now i have a crack in my passenger side header but i will get a before & after headers run no matter what. the new headers should get taken care of today if we do get it done today i'll try to get the sheets posted tonight, but it might be tomorrow before we get the new set of headers back on. so just bear with me & i'll put this argument to bed

(hopefully we get this done by the end of this week, cause i'm going down to florida on friday, so if it's not done by then, i'll have to wait until the next week to get it all done)

Look, you are missing my point. Headers, when installed with a new mid-pipe do produce gains. However, you don’t need to install headers to reach the max. output of our GT’s (250 -260 SAE rwhp) with bolt-ons. You can get to 250 – 260 rwhp without ever bothering with headers. That’s all I am trying to say.

You can’t tell me that installing an o/r X pipe, welding in straight-through mufflers, K&N and a dynotune wouldn’t get you at least 250 SAE rwhp. Trust me, it will! The stock computer program is conservative. The tune will provide your car with a new timing curve and a/f curve. Those two changes in conjuction with the better airflow will net your at least 25 rwhp.

mogs01gt · Mar 3, 2004

now you are talking about a tune? Dyno tune will give you an easy 10-15rwhp but what does that have to do with bolting on headers?

Jackie Chan · Mar 3, 2004

afull bolt on gt with headers>a full bolt on gt without headers.

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION, Headers have been good for two tenths on everyones times. Peak HP doesnt mean jack if you are giving up 6-10avg rwhp throughout the powerband.

Jackie Chan · Mar 3, 2004

I dont have the luxury like 2000gt of "racing" my car on the dyno. I actually take it down the track to see my gains.

Jackie Chan · Mar 3, 2004

This post is my example of 2000GT posting just to read his own

example of everything 2000GT says about Longtubes:

:

flipnsac · Mar 3, 2004

Here are some pics of stock manifolds compared to some JBA Shortys. The stock manifolds are at the top of the pics, the JBA's are at the bottom. You can see how restrictive the stock manifolds are and why headers make the expulsion much better.

2000GT · Mar 3, 2004

flipnsac said:
Here are some pics of stock manifolds compared to some JBA Shortys. The stock manifolds are at the top of the pics, the JBA's are at the bottom. You can see how restrictive the stock manifolds are and why headers make the expulsion much better.

Now look take a good look at your stock h-pipe and you will see the definition of restriction. Bolt up the JBA's to your stock h-pipe and you will see very little gain, if any.

The restriction in our GT's exhaust is not in the header/manifold, it's that crimped up cat invested log of a pipe that comes after the manifold.

Keep on trying to convince yourselves otherwise.

2000GT · Mar 3, 2004

Jackie Chan said:
This post is my example of 2000GT posting just to read his own

example of everything 2000GT says about Longtubes:
:

Jackie Chan - member of Stangnet since 10/17/02, 1115 posts, 2.22 per day

2000GT - member of Stanget since 11/30/99, 148 posts, 0.10 per day

Now which one of us makes posts just for the sake of posting? This is one of my rare posts that have nothing to do with the topic of this forum. You make non-technical posts constantly.

You're right, dyno results are worthless. Start a new thread about that when you get a chance.

mogs01gt · Mar 3, 2004

2000GT said:
Jackie Chan - member of Stangnet since 10/17/02, 1115 posts, 2.22 per day

2000GT - member of Stanget since 11/30/99, 148 posts, 0.10 per day

Now which one of us makes posts just for the sake of posting? This is one of my rare posts that have nothing to do with the topic of this forum. You make non-technical posts constantly.

You're right, dyno results are worthless. Start a new thread about that when you get a chance.

ok if you are going to be sarcastic.

ETs mean 100x more than dyno numbers. If one car dyno's higher and looses, who cares if he makes more power. IT LOST.

and what does post count or date of membership to this site, have anything to do with being intelligent on this topic??

Jackie Chan · Mar 3, 2004

I'll admit, for the money, a midpipe is a GREAT mod, but if I were to start over from the beginning, I would just do a full exhaust instead of spending money twice, because a full exhaust will yeild more power.

headers a waste of money?

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