Engine Help with carb conversion

Many Cars in this class are gutted, I’m not certain that’s what you’re shooting for..or privy to your Budget. You will likely need to adhere to specific Track Rules, guidelines in setting up your Car. Important you have that information..i’ll list what needs to be done in a vague, basic idea- (get you running. Carb, no EEC). If you
can be a bit more specific about your goal, answers are easier & more helpful in that capacity.Are you planning on staying more Stock, or also desire some solid Power adders?

Ignition & Gauges. Simple System...Locate an Ignition switched (Key Start and On position)12V+ source on your Fuseblock, for your Coil. Sending units in the Block Remove & plug. Mount the Interior’s Gauges where you want, send them through the Firewall with (6) #14AWG Wires, 1 being a Keyswitched/Fused Red Wire (Coil) using an existing grommeted hole. Remove old Oil sender & plumb In the Oil Pressure Gauge’s Tube/Fitting.Tach’s Wiring go to the Distributor. The Water Temp gauge’s thermocouple Threads into the new Intake. You want an older 351!s electronically -Based Distributor, or aftermarket- but reliable (Ford Racing, MSD Pro Billet, etc) with a Vacuum/Centrifugal advance to tailor your Dynamic Spark Timing curve.

Fuel Delivery System. Using the existing Electric Pump, you’ll need to plumb in an Intake mount manually adjustable fuel pressure Regulator to drop it down to 5 -10 PSI for a Carb, output(s) to AN type fitting(s) W/Braided line(s) to Carb. No Fuel prime needed.
By sending wires through the Firewall you need, eradication of what you don’t becomes much easier.
That Intake should fit the newer Motor, providing thy don’t have GT40 X or “Z” Heads, but I will confirm later today... J

EFI to carb swaps

Revised 10 Aug 2017 to add comment about using an in-tank fuel pump from an 85 5.0 Mustang

A word of warning on EFI to carb swaps: don’t expect to pass emissions in any state that does comprehensive smog inspections, because it won’t happen. Some states will not title or issue license plates to cars that have been converted from EFI to carb. Be aware that you are violating several Federal laws concerning the removal of pollution control equipment. If you operate the vehicle on public highways and get caught by state or federal law enforcement (doubtful, but possible) you could be subject to fines and imprisonment. You won't get any more power from a carb than you will from a properly maintained and tuned EFI system.

The following information is intended for informational purposes only. Operation of a motor vehicle modified in such as manner as described below should be limited to off road use only.

Doing the swap; you must know how to read electrical diagrams and wire circuits to properly do the swap. Don’t take shortcuts or cut corners in the fabrication of the electrical or mechanical assemblies. If you do NASCAR quality work, the car will look good, run good and be as reliable as a carb’d car can be. Take pride in a job done with excellence.

If you are one of those few people who do excellent work, please disregard my negative comments. They are not intended for you.

Quality, quality, quality…
Some of the motivation of my negative comments about EFI to carb has to do with the quality of electrical workmanship. A lot of the wiring “repairs” that I have seen on the road and in the junkyard looks like road kill. The other part of my negative view stems from people who can’t grasp the operation and tuning of EFI. Carbs have their own set of requirements and some learning is required to get the best performance. Every car is different and each installation needs to be tuned to get the best performance. Putting an “out of the box carb” or one from someone else’s car isn’t the way to success. There is no auto compensation for small variations in carbs like there is for EFI. Just throwing a carb on a car because you won’t bother to learn how EFI works is a poor excuse.


Now that the rant is over, here’s some practical advice…

1. Do not use an EFI in tank fuel pump with a carb. You will never get the pressure/flow regulated properly. If the add on pressure regulator fails, you will flood the engine with gas and wash all the oil off the cylinder walls. That will cost you big time $$$. Either go full EFI or use a tank/fuel pump/fuel lines out of an 85 or earlier Stang. The in tank electric fuel pump from an 85 5.0 Stang can be used since it is only 10 PSI and not 40PSI+ output pressure that an EFI pump delivers.. Fabricating your own setup is possible but there are some snags to overcome.

2. Do not attempt to leave the EFI computer in place in an attempt to control either the electric fuel pump or ignition. Doing so qualifies you for the “Road Kill Mechanics Award”.

3. If you try to use your current tank, you will need to pull the fuel pump out and fabricate a pickup tube & strainer sock to replace the fuel pump. Or you can have a sump fabricated and welded onto you existing tank. Many welding shops will not weld fuel tanks because of the dangers involved if the tank isn't purged properly.

4. You will need an external electric fuel pump unless you change the timing cover for one with the mechanical fuel pump mount on it. The external pump will have to be mounted below the bottom of the tank to get the siphon effect needed to keep the pump fed sufficiently. Rip all the EFI wiring out, and the computer controlled fuel pump won't work. You will need to add a relay & switch and wire in the existing inertia switch for an external low pressure electric fuel pump. Do not try to wire the fuel pump without the relay. The 15-20 amps the pump pulls will overload the circuit. This will take power away from other items on the same circuit or cause the fuse or fuse link to blow.

5.

6. You will need to run some new fuel feed lines or braided hose. The 3/8" aluminum tubing works well, but you will need a flaring tool and bending springs to fabricate the lines. Braided hose is easy to run and route, but is much more expensive. It is about $3.50-$4.00 a foot plus the end fittings, which are $3-$4 each. Fabricating hose assembles can be difficult, but anyplace that makes hydraulic hoses can do it for you for an extra charge. See http://www.amazonhose.com for more information.

7. For some help fabricating your own stainless steel hose assemblies, see
8. http://www.turbinefun.com/Stainless_Braided_Hose_Assembly.asp

9. For stainless steel braided hose and fittings for automotive use:

10. See http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=stainless steel hose&dds=1
11. http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=stainless steel hose&dds=1

12. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...hall&searchTerm=stainless+steel+hose&x=18&y=4

13. See http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Product...rformanceProducts/FittingsProducts/index.htm for more information on High performance automotive hose products

14. AN fittings require a 37 degree flaring tool. A standard automotive or household plumbing tool is 45 degrees and cannot be used with AN flare fittings. If you do, the flare is subjected to too much stress when the fitting is tightened, and is likely to fail or leak.

15. See http://www.mscdirect.com/ , http://www.mcmaster.com/ or for the flaring tool you will need . Prices start at $85 and go up

16. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH?PACACHE=000000013509163
17.

18. http://www.mcmaster.com/#flaring-tools/=b4fxc3
19.

20. Last time I was in Summit racing, they had a 37 degree flaring tool for less than $40. It may or may not be a catalog item.

21. While you are at the electrical part, you'll need a Duraspark or similar ignition system. The 85 Mustang GT 5 speed has a suitable Duraspark distributor with a steel gear compatible with the roller camshaft. The EFI ignition depends on the EFI sensors to advance the spark. Rip out the TPS and MAP/Baro sensors and the computer will have no idea of the proper ignition timing for best performance. Running a fixed timing setting is only for test purposes or for a race track only car. Don't try it on the street: the results will not be nearly as good as a properly setup Duraspark or equal. Crane makes a really nice distributor for non-EFI applications. . See http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=4&prt=127 for more information. Cost is about $400, which makes the 85 Mustang reman units look really appealing.


Duraspark II ignition diagram:

Diagram courtesy of /www.billwrigley.com

See http://webpages.charter.net/1bad6t/duraspark.html for more help.
Note the ballast resistor shown in the diagram: you’ll need that too
If you use a coil from a 78 or later Mustang, you don't need the ballast resistor. The stock 89 Ford/Mustang ignition coil does not need a ballast resistor


A simpler HEI ignition that uses the same distributor and fewer parts can be found here. This is an excellent resource, and I suggest that you add it to your Internet Favorites
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48435

22. Tools needed:
23. Crimp tool for connector pins $9-$30 AutoZone, NAPA, Advance Auto Parts or other store
24. 100-150 watt soldering gun (recommend WELLER 8200PK soldering gun kit 100/140W) $30 at Lowes or $40 at Home Depot
25. 3/32”-1/8” rosin core electrical solder, 1/4 lb roll $6 at Ace Hardware, Home Depot or Lowes
26. Assorted sizes of heat shrink tubing. Buy long pieces and cut length to fit. It is cheaper that way. http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&WebPage_ID=346&CFID=169547&CFTOKEN=34300345
27. Hot air gun to shrink the tubing ($30-$40) Home Depot
28. Jeweler’s screwdriver kit $5 at Ace Hardware
29. Assorted automotive wire, 18-16 gauge 10’-20’ foot spools in different colors. $5 a roll at Advance Auto Parts.
30. Ford connector pins AutoZone, NAPA or other store $5-$10 for a kit of 10-12 assorted pins

31. You will have $110-$150 in materials and tools if you don't already have them.

32. The water temp and oil pressure signals feed from the sender to the main harness through the 10 pin EFI engine harness. To utilize these senders, you need to identify the wires and find a way to reconnect them to the main harness after the EFI engine harness is removed. You need a weatherproof quick connector to join the sender wiring to the main harness.

33. See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.

34. The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.

35. You will need to construct a wiring harness from the ‘85 carb distributor to the Duraspark box if you go Duraspark, or other distributor to coil wiring.
36. The voltmeter picks up its signal from the switched voltage present on the instrument panel, so you don’t need to worry about that.

37. The fuel tank gauge is also independent of the computer wiring.

38. AutoZone wiring diagrams can be found if you are willing to dig through the self help repair section of their website. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/re...3835D6CFF5E3A5037BBBD332CF445FF.diyprod2-b2c3

39. How to solder - see
View: http://youtu.be/uaYdCRjDr4A
This is an excellent how to do it.

40. Soldering pigtails onto existing pins is road kill quality work as far as I am concerned. Take some time to study the way the Ford connectors are assembled and you will find that a small jeweler’s screwdriver will release the pins from the connector shell. New pins and a crimping tool are available from the Standard Motor Parts or Bendix Electrical parts line that the NAPA & Bumper to Bumper Auto Parts stores carry. Ask any auto parts store about Standard Motor Products or Bendix Electrical wiring parts. Those that carry them will be able to get the parts you need. AutoZone has a cheap kit with 10 pins for about $5. Just enough pins to leave you short when assembling a connector.

41. One of the interesting things about the Ford OEM wiring diagrams is that the connector shape on the drawing matches the connector shape in the car. That makes it easier to identify connectors and circuits. OEM Ford diagrams are available at for an 85 Mustang at http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result....edia=&mscsid=2M838NG3R5SR2MCS00A3HVE05T03C501 or can be found in the Chilton series of auto repair manuals for Mustangs.

42. The following is an excellent idea from a fellow Stangnetter who tackled the wiring plan the right way. He obtained the wiring diagrams from an 85 carb'd V8 Mustang and laid them out side by side with the diagrams from his car. He then traced out each circuit and the wire colors and connectors associated with them. After tracing the circuit and connectors for a circuit, he laid out the changes he needed to make. One circuit at a time made a difficult big job into many smaller easy to manage jobs.

43. Copied from pikapp33.
JR’s comments: I have heard that there have been quality problems with some of these Richporter distributors, but that may be a limited quantity of the units.

I recently changed my EFI mustang back to carb with MSD ignition, to save some money and go for a more simplistic approach. I researched, and found the best stock type distributor to use was from an 83 Bronco 5.0, which is a Duraspark (magnetic pickup, same as what MSD dists use), making it possible to use the 2 wire MSD trigger input, and also has a steel gear to work with the EFI hydraulic roller cam.

I chose to use a Richporter FD30 ($85). Then added a BWD C194A Cap Adapter ($12) to use the Fox style dist cap/wires (the Richporter comes with cap/rotor, which I didn't use; other brands come without and are cheaper, but have a core as well; no core on this one). And then a BWD D166 rotor ($6) to match the cap adapter. I also chose to buy the MSD 8869 adapter wire ($20ish) to connect the dist to the MSD harness for my 6AL. All together about $125, much cheaper than the MSD billet dists, and am very happy with the quality of the dist and the way the setup worked out.

The Richporter FD30 distributor is available at Advance Auto Parts ($90) & O’Riley’s ($81)

Wow, JR.- You really do have intricately detailed and highly insightful Technical writeups locked n’ loaded for near all Ford subject matter! Nice!!

Fast5.0....The Intake will Bolt up.You’re planning on dirt track Racing with this- correct?

fast5.0 said:

Yes i am, in the claimer class just to kinda get my feet in the water

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I understand- that’s cool..Do they have a Regulations handout on requirements to run there?

fast5.0 said:

It’s actually really simple i’ll try and post the rules underneath this

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Kind of a Grey area, but do you think that they will let you convert to Carburetion? Looks like they want it totally Stock regarding Powertrain... Are you just having issues with the EFI?

Does the EFI engine run fine now??? or is this a personal preference type of thing.... If you are worried about it making power we can help with that and stay EFI... you can ditch a ton of stuff without pissing of the ECU too much

fast5.0 said:

It does say they want it to remain stock but the race track manager doesn’t care because he understands that people want to do some stuff to there cars.

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That’s cool, it’s going to cost a bit to go Carbureted is all- just letting you know if you’re having EFI issues there’s always help on this Site to get by all of that. But If you want to go Carburetion- it’s always (obviously) your choice. I can throw some info.at you- either way!

The ECU has no connections to the dash gauges. They are all separate sensors from the ECU

fast5.0 said:

It’s a personal preference, just to run a couple wires for fuel, gauges, starter and what not without having to mess around with a computer.

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Ok, Carb it is..If you can give me some further information about what parts you have from the 84’ (whole Parts Car?) and what else you have for it, then I can offer up some ‘how to’ options to help and the cheaper $$ Purchase parts to do it..My 1st start in Racing was at an amusement Park similar to how you’re doing it..lol!. Budget?

I suggest dropping the gas tank and removing the EFI fuel pump, you can easily fab up a small pickup tube and use an external fuel pump meant for a carb. One of our racecars was done the 'easy way' using a regulator to drop the pressure from the efi pump down to 5psi.... until it didnt and flooded the engine hydrolocking it.

A91 is correct, Thanks!! You can eliminate all the Smog crap & you’d have the ability to Run an aggressive Tune with nobody on the Track the wiser. EFI reliability is very high, CPU has tough Skin-the worst it’d likely do is throw an emissions related CEL, (Not like you have to pass a DMV inspection, lol). It won’t shut you down or anything. . -easier to Diagnose, too.
All that being said, your preference is to run a Carb, so either way- I’m willing to help however I can.

a91what said:

I suggest dropping the gas tank and removing the EFI fuel pump, you can easily fab up a small pickup tube and use an external fuel pump meant for a carb. One of our racecars was done the 'easy way' using a regulator to drop the pressure from the efi pump down to 5psi.... until it didnt and flooded the engine hydrolocking it.

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Yes, needs to be a single line Tank (or Fuel Cell) using a Mech.Pump, or internal/external electric pump designed for a Carbureted engine with no more than 8 psi coming to the Carb from it without a Regulator.. Needs to have a Mercury Switch spidered in as well as the Inertia Switch in case of a rollover..

40PSI of Fuel squirting out of a Fuel system leak & on Fire is quite the Show!lol Pressures running in many new Cars near Triples that number, now.

@08GT500 has an important error in his response. 351 W blocks are taller than 302 W blocks. Intake manifolds do not interchange on 351-302 motors because of head to head width with the taller deck height, and the 351 shaft has to also be longer. Cams of the same variety (roller or pre roller) are often exchanged, but the timing order has to be set for the cam, and the distributor gear has to be right for the cam shaft gear’s material. The other distributor recommendations to get one from an earlier 302, or go with a HEI hopped up Ford distributor (like a Davis DUI) are possible, with the HEI being simple to wire. Some object to a taller, fat distributor up front on a Ford. But I doubt stock looks are important at this point.
I do not know your plans for oil pressure, but a hardened oil pump to distributor is mandatory on any build I do. The stock one in a crate motor from Marshall, (now Blueprint Engines) twisted up like a Twizzler and broke in a short amount of time.